Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

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mnymgr1
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Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby mnymgr1 » Mon Jun 04, 2018

Cleaning up my piles of mess this morning, had to take a look at an old article about Trifan600, VTOL vehicle.
Then I end up at Startengine, a crowdfunding company, which led me to this little company...
https://www.startengine.com/hygen

In that write-up, came across a couple sentences that peaked my curiosity .....
"Renewable energy is intermittent. Wind and solar companies often generate more power than they can sell to the grid. Storage of this excess electricity has not been feasible at scale. HyGen takes that excess energy, stores it as hydrogen, and adds value, selling the stored energy (hydrogen) as a transportation fuel."

My question to you chemists and math majors ..... why doesn't someone put a conversion device at the base of a wind factory, purchase the ultra cheap electricity at night when it sometimes goes to waste, convert water into hydrogen, then turn around during the daytime and use the hydrogen in a fixed plant back into electricity to sell at a large multiple to what you bought it for in the first place ??? I'm sure someone has thought to do this, wonder if they have or the economics of it just don't make sense.

But if you buy electricity at 1c / KW overnight and turn it into 4-8c / KW the next day, is there no way to make money on that if you designed a modular fixed plant that could easily expand as wasted energy supply increased over the coming decades ?? You don't start with a huge plant, you start with something that would fit in a shed and just grow it over time. Conversely, if electrical generators are unwilling to sell that electricity cheap, how about selling them the modular pieces so they harness their own energy overnight ??

Maybe I need more coffee :kitty:
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby MaryB » Mon Jun 04, 2018

Hydrogen is extremely difficult to store and transport is probably why. And extremely explosive when o2 is present!

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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby Brick's » Mon Jun 04, 2018

No wasted energy if we used Buckminster Fuller's Global Energy Grid conceived by him in 1938.
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby mnymgr1 » Mon Jun 04, 2018

we'd need you to explain a bit more john, haven't a clue what he said.

mary, I figure if they are now using hydrogen in cars, buses, making hydrogen in a fixed plant, storing it overnight, would be absolutely no problem at all. there would be no transport in my example, just one side of the facility to the generators the next day to create electricity.
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby AGhead » Mon Jun 04, 2018

Kind of off topic, but a similar "IDK why" issue. At my City Water treatment plant, My 20 hP pumps pump volumes of water through pipes. We have many "propeller" meters inside the pipes metering flows, etc. We also have many separate small chemical feed pumps and other instrumentation that only pump/run when the large pumps are pumping.
Why cuuldn't more internal pipe "propellers" be installed to generate power for the smaller elec. demanding items :?:
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby MaryB » Tue Jun 05, 2018

AGhead wrote:Kind of off topic, but a similar "IDK why" issue. At my City Water treatment plant, My 20 hP pumps pump volumes of water through pipes. We have many "propeller" meters inside the pipes metering flows, etc. We also have many separate small chemical feed pumps and other instrumentation that only pump/run when the large pumps are pumping.
Why cuuldn't more internal pipe "propellers" be installed to generate power for the smaller elec. demanding items :?:



Because you lose more energy than you gain.

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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby MaryB » Tue Jun 05, 2018

mnymgr1 wrote:we'd need you to explain a bit more john, haven't a clue what he said.

mary, I figure if they are now using hydrogen in cars, buses, making hydrogen in a fixed plant, storing it overnight, would be absolutely no problem at all. there would be no transport in my example, just one side of the facility to the generators the next day to create electricity.



Most wind turbine installs are remote, like Buffalo Ridge near me. It stretches for over 125 miles from Western Minnesota down into Northern Iowa. No large population centers nearby. A new power plant would require a new transmission line to handle that current supply because the wind infrastructure is very spread out to multiple transmission line systems.

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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby Brick's » Tue Jun 05, 2018

I'm no electrical guy but here goes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afsgpDLneIw

The problem is in any given area of the earth there are two times of day having peak power demands and a higher power demand. One in the morning, one in the evening for peak demand and higher during the day vs lower at night. In order to deal with these peak and high demand times, during times of lower power demand energy is "stored". For example, water is pumped to a higher level so it can be released to turn additional turbines during times of high or peak demand. This is inefficient. I would think in the same way using the extra electricity to separate hydrogen from oxygen in order to burn the hydrogen to produce steam to turn a turbine is inefficient as described above.

With a global energy grid (circumnavigating the globe) as Fuller imagined, the two increases in peak demand areas would be in two different places (virtually opposite ends) of the globe at any time. The rest of the areas of the globe would be in lower demand and could provide the additional electricity required (such as the area of the earth at night). As the earth turns, every hour that passes moves the higher demand areas one time zone west.

The result is a significant increase in energy efficiency as the wasteful practice of "storing" energy is greatly reduced. If not virtually eliminated. Such a global grid should be able to place areas that generate high amounts of renewable energy with low demand always (desolate but sunny or windy) to provide the grid areas under peak or high demand as the sun is shining and the wind is blowing somewhere on the globe all the time.

And all thought up about 80 years ago. How stupid can our species get not to do this?
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby Purple and Gold » Tue Jun 05, 2018

Electric Utilities want to generate at near balanced loads 24/7. My company had me install special metering at different locations that recorded the daily/ "Time of Day" KWH useage. The company wanted to offer a cheaper rate for power consumed during off peak times, encouraging customers to use more electricity (chores,etc) when the total load demand was down.
Also I believe when a power company is buying electricity, it has to pay only what it costs them to generate that power, which is not much. I used to take care of the In and Out meters in all of the Co-Gens in the plants here.
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby mnymgr1 » Tue Jun 05, 2018

so this scientist would like the world to build electrical lines from peak production time zones to peak need times 50% across the earth, that occur simultaneously ?? If so, there are so many reasons / blockades for this, don't have time right now as I'm at swim team practice with my kid. But maybe I didn't read it right. Great concept to save the conversion loss but just won't happen for a long long time.

If there are 125 miles of wind turbines, the electricity comes out somewhere, doesn't it ? all at one end, or disbursed where it is generated ? all I suggested is that the electricity do what bricks showed has been done before, like pump water into a higher elevation lake for daytime use. would there be loss converting water to hydrogen back to water...yes, of course. If the spread which is the important part, net net, is profitable, it seems like this is a decent idea as I've read many times that electricity programs where you pay by the hour are actually 0 or negative overnight, several days of the year. My margin analysis, simple as it is, would be 1 part in that is a penny cost, loss of lets say 25% thru 2x conversions, then sale of .75 parts at 4c which is 3c. You just tripled your 1c overnight. Obviously, the 25% loss guesstimate is the key, besides what the sale price is the day after but selling variances can be negotiated away fairly easily.

I've always believed that if the world wanted to solve energy problems, they should work on large scale non-moving ideas to just push down energy costs in the areas they want the world to focus on. I also firmly believe that a battery capable of holding 10x todays average battery with similar or better discharge and weight ratios will lead us into the next phase of an industrial revolution. Before we get there of course, oil companies, the middle east and a whole many more barriers to something like that have to be placated in some way or it won't happen.
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby AGhead » Wed Jun 06, 2018

mnymgr1 wrote:so this scientist would like the world to build electrical lines from peak production time zones to peak need times 50% across the earth, that occur simultaneously ?? .


Why can't we transmit big electricity wireless yet?
We can talk, email, text and send photos and videos from a palm size computer, all unplugged. Bounce stuff off the moon and satellites, walk on the moon, drill holes like 7 miles deep to get oil, 'global warm' the earth, lol...
...just asking
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby cmiller17363 » Wed Jun 06, 2018

I watched an episode of a show about offgrid or self-sufficient islands on Netflix. A guy came up with an idea to pump water up a mountainside at night when turbines were spinning, and then using that water to produce hydroelectric power when the wind turbines couldn't keep up or were not spinning. It was a cool idea and it worked for them.
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby MaryB » Wed Jun 06, 2018

mnymgr1 wrote:so this scientist would like the world to build electrical lines from peak production time zones to peak need times 50% across the earth, that occur simultaneously ?? If so, there are so many reasons / blockades for this, don't have time right now as I'm at swim team practice with my kid. But maybe I didn't read it right. Great concept to save the conversion loss but just won't happen for a long long time.

If there are 125 miles of wind turbines, the electricity comes out somewhere, doesn't it ? all at one end, or disbursed where it is generated ? all I suggested is that the electricity do what bricks showed has been done before, like pump water into a higher elevation lake for daytime use. would there be loss converting water to hydrogen back to water...yes, of course. If the spread which is the important part, net net, is profitable, it seems like this is a decent idea as I've read many times that electricity programs where you pay by the hour are actually 0 or negative overnight, several days of the year. My margin analysis, simple as it is, would be 1 part in that is a penny cost, loss of lets say 25% thru 2x conversions, then sale of .75 parts at 4c which is 3c. You just tripled your 1c overnight. Obviously, the 25% loss guesstimate is the key, besides what the sale price is the day after but selling variances can be negotiated away fairly easily.

I've always believed that if the world wanted to solve energy problems, they should work on large scale non-moving ideas to just push down energy costs in the areas they want the world to focus on. I also firmly believe that a battery capable of holding 10x todays average battery with similar or better discharge and weight ratios will lead us into the next phase of an industrial revolution. Before we get there of course, oil companies, the middle east and a whole many more barriers to something like that have to be placated in some way or it won't happen.


Buffalo Ridge has 5 or 6 major transmission lines that head off to population centers... and all are loaded to the max when the wind is blowing. So any new generation station would either need to be a bunch of smaller co-gen plants to use the existing infrastructure when there is no wind(this doesn't allow for peak demand makeup) or new transmission lines would have to be ran.

Plus there are 4-5 different companies that own the wind turbines on Buffalo Ridge, heck Florida Power and Light owns some of them! They use it to claim they have x amount of green energy in their portfolio even though none of the power is used in Florida!

So getting those companies to all work together...

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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby MaryB » Wed Jun 06, 2018

Brick's wrote:I'm no electrical guy but here goes: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afsgpDLneIw

The problem is in any given area of the earth there are two times of day having peak power demands and a higher power demand. One in the morning, one in the evening for peak demand and higher during the day vs lower at night. In order to deal with these peak and high demand times, during times of lower power demand energy is "stored". For example, water is pumped to a higher level so it can be released to turn additional turbines during times of high or peak demand. This is inefficient. I would think in the same way using the extra electricity to separate hydrogen from oxygen in order to burn the hydrogen to produce steam to turn a turbine is inefficient as described above.

With a global energy grid (circumnavigating the globe) as Fuller imagined, the two increases in peak demand areas would be in two different places (virtually opposite ends) of the globe at any time. The rest of the areas of the globe would be in lower demand and could provide the additional electricity required (such as the area of the earth at night). As the earth turns, every hour that passes moves the higher demand areas one time zone west.

The result is a significant increase in energy efficiency as the wasteful practice of "storing" energy is greatly reduced. If not virtually eliminated. Such a global grid should be able to place areas that generate high amounts of renewable energy with low demand always (desolate but sunny or windy) to provide the grid areas under peak or high demand as the sun is shining and the wind is blowing somewhere on the globe all the time.

And all thought up about 80 years ago. How stupid can our species get not to do this?


You would need superconducting power lines to make it feasible or the losses would be atrocious. Way to much power would be lost to heating the lines. We currently don't have the technology to make 5,000+ mile long superconducting power transmission lines and wireless power transmission suffers from similar losses. Further you get from the transmit point the more the energy density drops. A laser would negate some of that but losses due to water vapor/air molecules would be high...

It just isn't possible given our current technology.

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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby Brick's » Thu Jun 07, 2018

Mary, thank you for bringing me up to a better awareness by your posts above and especially your answers to my PM. Your contemporary knowledge enabled me to integrate a better understanding and search out a more modern concept of Bucky's original idea.

The search brought me to IEEE "The world's largest technical professional organization for the advancement of technology". Being a self-professed technotard, I try to find the best source of information I can find on such subjects. What I found I present below.

The idea of a global energy grid would be better described as "interconnect(ed) regional electricity networks to form a globe-spanning supergrid . . . the technology now exists to transmit massive amounts of electricity over long distances without significant losses . . . technologically, it would hinge on a globe-encircling network of high-voltage direct-current (HVDC) transmission systems, most of the components of which already exist".

This is from the article Let’s Build a Global Power Grid by Clark W. Gellings found here: https://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/the-sm ... power-grid

Gellings goes on to describe the current technology, benefits, challenges, history, regional grids to interconnect and additional technology required to make it so. Interesting are the hydrogen producing nuclear reactors that would send hydrogen down super conducting transmission lines to both cool them and provide daytime energy storage for leveling energy consumption peaks. Similar to what is being describe above.
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby MaryB » Thu Jun 07, 2018

Interconnected grids also bring up the nightmare of cascade failure when one section takes down several others before safety devices can kick in and kill the interconnects.

Some fun, high voltage switch gear opening and closing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VrY_k_pdlCs

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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby everything » Wed Jun 13, 2018

This isn't possible yet either, but they say it will be, and can't come fast enough for mother earth. Fussion.
http://www.techtimes.com/articles/22989 ... s-core.htm

Storage is the next big thing for right now, probably make a good investment if they are not all privately owned.
https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... -in-energy

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graph

Postby mnymgr1 » Wed Jun 13, 2018

seems to explain why my idea, to some degree, has not taken hold yet.
notwithstanding there is no energy loss due to transport, it is still an ugly %

https://www.greenoptimistic.com/hydroge ... yF2d0gvyM8
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby mtforpar » Wed Jun 13, 2018

Yes, the energy losses are substantial. One could do it on-site at the point of consumption near to the wind turbines location. However, the challenge is the method of storage and the investment required to create and maintain the said method. That will in itself have losses but the real challenge is then the cost of the storage infrastructure to build and maintain.
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Re: Thoughts ? Renewable energy that goes to waste overnight....

Postby MaryB » Wed Jun 13, 2018

Boils down to we need a better battery... one that is not an environmental nightmare to produce or recycle...


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