Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

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Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?

Yes
16
18%
No
72
82%
 
Total votes: 88

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jcz1
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Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby jcz1 » Wed Feb 24, 2016

Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?
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tdtwedt
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby tdtwedt » Wed Feb 24, 2016

jcz1 wrote:Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?


Absolutely not. FBI just wants a way to search everyone's phone without a search warrant and use the information as they please.

Good article on zerohedge.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-2 ... oor-iphone
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jcz1
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby jcz1 » Wed Feb 24, 2016

tdtwedt wrote:
jcz1 wrote:Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?


Absolutely not. FBI just wants a way to search everyone's phone without a search warrant and use the information as they please.

Good article on zerohedge.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-2 ... oor-iphone


Doesn't this software require physical access to the phone?

Personally, I wouldn't want to store anything confidential on a phone anyway. The worst thing on mine is email, and we all know that's not safe anyway, on a phone or elsewhere.
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SilverGOP
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby SilverGOP » Wed Feb 24, 2016

It's why my POJ cell is an old tracphone with no fancies.

Weren't the obamaphones apples?

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tdtwedt
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby tdtwedt » Wed Feb 24, 2016

jcz1 wrote:
tdtwedt wrote:
jcz1 wrote:Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?


Absolutely not. FBI just wants a way to search everyone's phone without a search warrant and use the information as they please.

Good article on zerohedge.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-2 ... oor-iphone


Doesn't this software require physical access to the phone?

Personally, I wouldn't want to store anything confidential on a phone anyway. The worst thing on mine is email, and we all know that's not safe anyway, on a phone or elsewhere.



The FBI/NSA etc can hack into any device remotely and can get around a password if they have a backdoor.
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tdtwedt
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby tdtwedt » Wed Feb 24, 2016

Engineer wrote:The court order specifies that there can be "no time limit" between password requests.

Given the time they've already spent on this case, the matter obviously isn't urgent, so why do they demand (not need) a tool which will open a phone in 15 seconds rather than a couple days?

The best answer I can think of: They want to be able to break into phones at will, and be fast enough to do so while a suspect is taking a bathroom break.



If they have a backdoor then they will not need a search warrant.
This is the reason they want the software backdoor. What is to stop them from using the backdoor on everyday citizens.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby mnymgr1 » Wed Feb 24, 2016

does anyone here actually believe that the NSA can't already hack just about anything on the planet ? they are doing this publicly to not worry the citizens of their abilities but my guess is they already know exactly what is on this phone. hell, there are probably teens able to crack much of the worlds devices, you'd hope with billions thrown at them that the NSA could do it by now :turtle:
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby SilverGOP » Thu Feb 25, 2016

mnymgr1 wrote:does anyone here actually believe that the NSA can't already hack just about anything on the planet ? they are doing this publicly to not worry the citizens of their abilities but my guess is they already know exactly what is on this phone. hell, there are probably teens able to crack much of the worlds devices, you'd hope with billions thrown at them that the NSA could do it by now :turtle:


I'm pretty sure No Such Agency has let absolutely NO grass grow under their feet along the line of being able to do pretty much what they want regarding monitoring anything electronic. Encryption... I don't know, save that it'd be an odd nation indeed that freely allowed public access to encryption that their own security services were unable to crack.

I get more crackles, pops and snaps than a warehouse full of Rice Krispies; I'm relatively certain I'm being monitored. Ex-Army, ex-intel, registered Republican, NRA member... any two of those would have got me on the regime's unofficial official enemies' list to be monitored. Shucks, I'm surprised I haven't been hauled away yet.
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db23
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby db23 » Thu Feb 25, 2016

jcz1 wrote:Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?

Let's not kid ourselves here, Apple already has the necessary software / backdoor to crack their own phones, it's a matter of should they share it with the FBI...

I bet if anyone here or their friends or family were impacted by the terrorists actions they'd be saying yes...

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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby OmahaHL » Thu Feb 25, 2016

They should have to get a search warrant. If there is information leading to another cell or group the government should know. Just download this guys information and put it in a zip file and turn it over.

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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby MrGaribaldi » Thu Feb 25, 2016

tdtwedt wrote:
jcz1 wrote:Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?


The FBI just wants a way to search everyone's phone without a search warrant and use the information as they please.


The FBI doesn't need an iphone hack to get your info; they already have your Facebook page. :lol:

Simple way to get around Apple is to offer a $1 million bounty to the hacker who can do the deed. I'm sure there's a Ruskie somewhere in need of money.

All kidding aside, it's a slippery slope.
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tdtwedt
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby tdtwedt » Thu Feb 25, 2016

db23 wrote:
jcz1 wrote:Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?



I bet if anyone here or their friends or family were impacted by the terrorists actions they'd be saying yes...



Isn't this the same argument that the anti-gun crowd makes....

I bet if anyone here or their friends or family were impacted by the terrorists actions a gun crime they'd be saying yes...to banning guns



Being a victim of a gun crime is even more common than being a victim of terrorism.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby thaweatherman » Thu Feb 25, 2016

Security worker here. Apple used to have this functionality. They then completely removed it from their software. FBI wants them to build a custom OS with the "backdoor" built in so they can drop it on the phone. This requires lots of resources. Apple may actually care about privacy and whatnot but really they're just saving themselves money. Also, it isn't really a backdoor. The patch would just remove the time limit between failed password guesses, thus making it easier to crack. Essentially if you have a strong password then it doesn't particularly matter.

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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby MaxGravy » Thu Feb 25, 2016

Seems like they could disassemble the phone, hot-wire the memory and decrypt it. Is this not technically possible?
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby InfleXion » Thu Feb 25, 2016

MaxGravy wrote:Seems like they could disassemble the phone, hot-wire the memory and decrypt it. Is this not technically possible?

My thoughts exactly. I'd be shocked if they didn't have a way to pull out the hard drive and mount it into some adapter to read the bytes off it, with or without cracking the software on the phone. Even if it's encrypted, if they wrote the encryption algorithms then they'll know how to reverse it.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby silverbender » Thu Feb 25, 2016

MaxGravy wrote:Seems like they could disassemble the phone, hot-wire the memory and decrypt it. Is this not technically possible?
Mcafee is offering to do this which is not hacking but disassembling the phone. It requires the phone and a few weeks in a lab,but the F.B.I. does not seem to be responding to his offer to do it for free.The debate is fraught with fear and dis information.They should have this capacity themselves if they were not just pretending to be competent or more likely lazy and or lying. They changed the password so that it could no longer sync and back up from the cloud which they could have Googled
Last edited by silverbender on Thu Feb 25, 2016, edited 1 time in total.
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thaweatherman
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby thaweatherman » Thu Feb 25, 2016

InfleXion wrote:
MaxGravy wrote:Seems like they could disassemble the phone, hot-wire the memory and decrypt it. Is this not technically possible?

My thoughts exactly. I'd be shocked if they didn't have a way to pull out the hard drive and mount it into some adapter to read the bytes off it, with or without cracking the software on the phone. Even if it's encrypted, if they wrote the encryption algorithms then they'll know how to reverse it.

That's not how encryption works. You can't just reverse it without the password. The FBI wants to be able to brute force the password without hinderances Apple has in place.

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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby natsb88 » Thu Feb 25, 2016

MaxGravy wrote:Seems like they could disassemble the phone, hot-wire the memory and decrypt it. Is this not technically possible?

Even if you bypass the phone and read the data directly, it will be jumbled nonsense. The only way to decrypt this hardware-encrypted data it is with the proper key, which is random and unique to each phone, embedded in the hardware, and can only be accessed be entering the password. iOS currently locks you out (or wipes the data completely, if the user enabled that feature) after 10 consecutive incorrect password attempts. Apple estimates that guessing a 6-digit password with these limitations would take 5+ years. An 8-digit password 15+ years. The FBI wants Apple to make a version of iOS that removes the 10 password attempt limitation and the data wipe option so that they can try to brute force guess the password.

Trying to break 256-bit AES encryption directly by guessing the key (1.1 x 10^77 possible keys) is not a practical option. Even if you only have to go through half of the possible decryption keys, It would take the fastest supercomputer in the world 917,326,310,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years to do it.

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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby BarsandStars » Thu Feb 25, 2016

In short, HELL NO.

This is our government we're talking about here. The same idiots that "lowered our healthcare costs" Whatever their stated "mission" is, the reality is the opposite. Our govt has proven itself useless time and time again. This is about control and nothing more.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby InfleXion » Thu Feb 25, 2016

natsb88 wrote:
MaxGravy wrote:Seems like they could disassemble the phone, hot-wire the memory and decrypt it. Is this not technically possible?

Even if you bypass the phone and read the data directly, it will be jumbled nonsense. The only way to decrypt this hardware-encrypted data it is with the proper key, which is random and unique to each phone, embedded in the hardware, and can only be accessed be entering the password. iOS currently locks you out (or wipes the data completely, if the user enabled that feature) after 10 consecutive incorrect password attempts. Apple estimates that guessing a 6-digit password with these limitations would take 5+ years. An 8-digit password 15+ years. The FBI wants Apple to make a version of iOS that removes the 10 password attempt limitation and the data wipe option so that they can try to brute force guess the password.

Trying to break 256-bit AES encryption directly by guessing the key (1.1 x 10^77 possible keys) is not a practical option. Even if you only have to go through half of the possible decryption keys, It would take the fastest supercomputer in the world 917,326,310,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years to do it.

The "fastest" computers in the world are super cooled and use light (photons) instead of electricity for the circuitry. It's roughly the equivalent of going from horse and buggy to the automobile. The CPU can process 35 DVDs worth (1 terabit) of data per second. And that's what we know about in the public domain (albeit not retail), which doesn't take into account that the government keeps technology private for 30 years before it's released to the public.

So we could easily remove a dozen or so zeroes from that number, and a lot more if there are multiple CPUs being used for the task or even faster computers that aren't made known to the public.

I would never trust encryption to be bulletproof personally.
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