Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Please put all polls here.

Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?

Yes
15
17%
No
71
83%
 
Total votes: 86

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jcz1
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby jcz1 » Sat Feb 27, 2016

Engineer wrote:The FBI already had access to that information, and lost it by not following protocols.

The information would have been easy to retrieve if they would have simply taken the phone to its home network to reset the passcode. That's ALL they needed to do...literally just take the damn phone home so it didn't think it was stolen.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160225/15240333713/we-read-apples-65-page-filing-calling-bullshit-justice-department-so-you-dont-have-to.shtml


That's not quite what the article says. Here is the quote in the article which is quoting from Apple's 65 page filing:

Unfortunately, the FBI, without consulting Apple or reviewing its public guidance regarding iOS, changed the iCloud password associated with one of the attacker’s accounts, foreclosing the possibility of the phone initiating an automatic iCloud back-up of its data to a known Wi-Fi network... which could have obviated the need to unlock the phone and thus for the extraordinary order the government now seeks.21 Had the FBI consulted Apple first, this litigation may not have been necessary.


The automatic iCloud backup can be turned off, which certainly seems like something a terrorist would do, meaning the FBI would still need Apple's help.
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Engineer
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Engineer » Sat Feb 27, 2016

jcz1 wrote:
Unfortunately, the FBI, without consulting Apple or reviewing its public guidance regarding iOS, changed the iCloud password associated with one of the attacker’s accounts, foreclosing the possibility of the phone initiating an automatic iCloud back-up of its data to a known Wi-Fi network... which could have obviated the need to unlock the phone and thus for the extraordinary order the government now seeks.21 Had the FBI consulted Apple first, this litigation may not have been necessary.


The automatic iCloud backup can be turned off, which certainly seems like something a terrorist would do, meaning the FBI would still need Apple's help.


But...was it turned off? Shouldn't a judge place the burden of proof on the FBI (especially after their destruction of evidence) to prove that backup was disabled rather than declare your hypothetical situation as fact?

A judge in Chicago made a similar ruling after after rampant police abuse of video evidence.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160214/07401533598/court-says-cops-cant-testify-case-after-destroying-footage-dui-arrest.shtml

Following the parties’ oral argument, the trial court granted defendant’s motion in limine to prevent the testimony of the police officers and stated that “without there being explanation as to a legitimate basis for the tape not being available, that has to be construed against the State.” The trial court asserted that it granted defendant’s motion in limine and for sanctions pursuant to Kladis, a case where the supreme court upheld the judgment of the appellate court that granted the defendant’s motion for sanctions and barred the State from presenting testimony as to the events surrounding the defendant’s arrest after it was discovered that the State destroyed the police squad car’s recording of the defendant’s arrest.
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CaptainW
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby CaptainW » Sat Feb 27, 2016

Fusion wrote:Couple thoughts:
As someone already said...very slippery slope
This is great marketing/PR for Apple standing up to the gubberment
It's also a mound of negative PR with something over 2 billion iPhones sold...lots of nervous users out there.

Lastly, If there was another attack on US soil like 911 and it could have been thwarted if there was a way to access terrorist phones, would you still be against it?
Having said that, the FBI has not said they cannot do their job without a de-encryption device.


With all due respect, they can attack us anytime they want. As I recall, the attack in Garland, Texas that was thwarted by an off duty police officer was known of by one or more of our three letter agencies but they lacked the competence to get this info to the people at risk.
One of the shooters in California walked into the U.S. despite lies and discrepancies on her Visa application. Illegals come in through our southern border everyday.
So they can enter the U.S. several different ways whenever they wish. Unfortunately, when they are ready, they will attack us and it us up to each of us to be vigilant and as prepared as we can.
This request for help from Apple is a ruse. It will be used against the citizens of this country just like all of the other drug and terrorist laws are. RICO, the Patriot Act, the Bank Secrecy Act, etc., are all examples of laws that were passed to detect bad guys that have mostly been used against law abiding citizens.
As someone already mentioned, if they get access to our phones, there are any number of things they can find on it to use as an excuse to confiscate possessions, or arrest the owner, or both.
We've lost virtually all of our rights as it is, let's not voluntarily give up what little privacy we have left by giving them access to our phones too.

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jcz1
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby jcz1 » Tue Mar 01, 2016

What does everyone think about this...

There are laws that protect, I think it's doctor-patient confidentiality. Yet the law saws that protection dies when the patient dies. (Or maybe it's lawyer-client privilege that dies, not sure.)

What if Apple were only forced to help the gov when the owner of the phone is dead, such as this case?

Or do you think the gov would go around killing everyone so they could get to their phone? (Some might argue this happens overseas already, though we typically blow up their phone with the drone strikes.)
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Engineer
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Engineer » Tue Mar 01, 2016

jcz1 wrote:What does everyone think about this...

There are laws that protect, I think it's doctor-patient confidentiality. Yet the law saws that protection dies when the patient dies. (Or maybe it's lawyer-client privilege that dies, not sure.)

What if Apple were only forced to help the gov when the owner of the phone is dead, such as this case?

Or do you think the gov would go around killing everyone so they could get to their phone? (Some might argue this happens overseas already, though we typically blow up their phone with the drone strikes.)


Strawman argument, unless you want apple to be the digital custodian of record...in which case cloud storage would need to be mandatory.

Personally, I wouldn't want the government to have a right to drill my safe (or dig through my computer) just because I kicked the bucket.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Operadad » Tue Mar 01, 2016

Interesting points, one and all....

However, I really think it is a moot point. I refuse to believe that the inventors of
these devices don't have "back doors" into each and every one of them. programmers do
not need to remember passwords to all of their programs.... they have a back door sing in.
If they wrote it, they can get into it..
:thumbup: :thumbdown:

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agnostic
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby agnostic » Tue Mar 01, 2016

So maybe the FBI should round up these Apple programmers and waterboard
the back doors out of them. :pop:
"Back in '82 I used to be able to throw a pigskin a quarter mile" --Uncle Rico

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tdtwedt
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby tdtwedt » Tue Mar 01, 2016

agnostic wrote:So maybe the FBI should round up these Apple programmers and waterboard
the back doors out of them. :pop:


I don't want anyone to waterboard my back door. :lol:
There are more ways than one to skin a cat.

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TTrav
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby TTrav » Tue Mar 01, 2016

I suspect this is a silly fishing expedition by the FBI and I am really happy that Apple is putting their foot down and fighting this one.

First off, I am seeing this as the ideal case to try to force Apple's hand to break the encryption of their own devices. What possible better excuse could you have than home grown terrorist? Secondly, while the FBI keeps saying that this is a one time request, I can almost guarantee that as soon as the software is built to break the encryption, Apple gets a pile of iphones within the week asking them to be decrypted. A prosecutor in NYC already said he had over 100 phones that he can't get into.
Second, (correct me if you have heard differently) I have read elsewhere that this wasn't even the shooters primary phone. This was his phone from work. Both he and his wife destroyed their primary cell phones and either destroyed or disposed of their hard drive from their computer. If there was anything of value on his work phone he would have destroyed it too.
Lastly, though I didn't agree with his views on quite a few rulings, I really enjoyed this bit of his writing - "There is nothing new in the realization that the Constitution sometimes insulates the criminality of a few in order to protect the privacy of us all" Antonin Scalia

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InfleXion
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby InfleXion » Tue Mar 01, 2016

TTrav wrote:Lastly, though I didn't agree with his views on quite a few rulings, I really enjoyed this bit of his writing - "There is nothing new in the realization that the Constitution sometimes insulates the criminality of a few in order to protect the privacy of us all" Antonin Scalia

The alternative is to destroy the rights of all to shed light on the criminality of some.
Silver: the Rodney Dangerfield of precious metals.

Be wary of he who would deny you access to information,
for in his heart he dreams himself your master.

http://search.lores.eu/indexo.htm

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Engineer
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Engineer » Tue Mar 08, 2016

The ACLU describes how to bypass Apple's password restriction...without forcing Apple to build a government OS.

https://www.aclu.org/blog/free-future/one-fbis-major-claims-iphone-case-fraudulent
The year 2017: Where words and ideas are considered too hateful to be said,
while riots and assault are considered too peaceful to be prosecuted.

Purple and Gold
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Purple and Gold » Tue Mar 08, 2016

mnymgr1 wrote:does anyone here actually believe that the NSA can't already hack just about anything on the planet ? they are doing this publicly to not worry the citizens of their abilities but my guess is they already know exactly what is on this phone. hell, there are probably teens able to crack much of the worlds devices, you'd hope with billions thrown at them that the NSA could do it by now :turtle:


I do believe so.
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lomalu
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby lomalu » Tue Mar 08, 2016

I think it's about " setting precidence "
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Engineer
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Engineer » Sun Mar 13, 2016

When the Luther bibles started to be produced en masse in German in 1522, followed by similar French editions, it broke the information stranglehold – the power of narrative – that the Catholic Church had held for centuries, if not upward of a millennium. This caused the church to lobby for laws against this disruptive technology that could be used by usurpers to spread dangerous ideas (such as the notion that they could read and interpret the bible for themselves).

And indeed, exactly that justification was used in France to ban all use of the printing press by penalty of death (!) on January 13, 1535 – exactly the justification Obama gives in his opening speech in SXSW against the Internet and encryption: it was “used to spread dangerous ideas”. This justification can still be found in the French log books of law.

Sometimes, you need to know a little bit of history to make sure you’re on the right side of history.


https://www.privateinternetaccess.com/blog/2016/03/obama-repeats-argument-printing-press-sxsw-directed-internet
The year 2017: Where words and ideas are considered too hateful to be said,
while riots and assault are considered too peaceful to be prosecuted.

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Engineer
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Engineer » Thu Mar 24, 2016

The year 2017: Where words and ideas are considered too hateful to be said,
while riots and assault are considered too peaceful to be prosecuted.

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TTrav
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby TTrav » Mon Mar 28, 2016

Well well, looks like they didn't needs Apple's help after all. I'm still better that there is nothing of value on it and this was just a silly fishing expiation to get a backdoor into iphones.


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t458
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby t458 » Tue Mar 29, 2016

No private company should work for the government, unless the government pays for the "feature" to give the company a profit, with the loss of customers calculated in.

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TTrav
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby TTrav » Sat Apr 16, 2016

Yep, totally tried to bully Apple into weakening encryption and the was nothing of value on the phone. I'm not surprised.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2016/04/14 ... ok_iphone/

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dbm300
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby dbm300 » Sun Apr 17, 2016

The should offer to do it for $10 million dollars, then tell them they have run into trouble and they need more programmers and the costs have escaladed another $10 million dollars. rinse repeat a few times. then when it comes out it only works on IPhone 4 which have by that time all become obsolete.

Reminds me of some Lockheed martin aviation projects . . . . .
... and Bob's your uncle.


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