Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Please put all polls here.

Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?

Yes
15
18%
No
69
82%
 
Total votes: 84

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natsb88
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby natsb88 » Thu Feb 25, 2016

MaxGravy wrote:Seems like they could disassemble the phone, hot-wire the memory and decrypt it. Is this not technically possible?

Even if you bypass the phone and read the data directly, it will be jumbled nonsense. The only way to decrypt this hardware-encrypted data it is with the proper key, which is random and unique to each phone, embedded in the hardware, and can only be accessed be entering the password. iOS currently locks you out (or wipes the data completely, if the user enabled that feature) after 10 consecutive incorrect password attempts. Apple estimates that guessing a 6-digit password with these limitations would take 5+ years. An 8-digit password 15+ years. The FBI wants Apple to make a version of iOS that removes the 10 password attempt limitation and the data wipe option so that they can try to brute force guess the password.

Trying to break 256-bit AES encryption directly by guessing the key (1.1 x 10^77 possible keys) is not a practical option. Even if you only have to go through half of the possible decryption keys, It would take the fastest supercomputer in the world 917,326,310,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years to do it.

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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby BarsandStars » Thu Feb 25, 2016

In short, HELL NO.

This is our government we're talking about here. The same idiots that "lowered our healthcare costs" Whatever their stated "mission" is, the reality is the opposite. Our govt has proven itself useless time and time again. This is about control and nothing more.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby InfleXion » Thu Feb 25, 2016

natsb88 wrote:
MaxGravy wrote:Seems like they could disassemble the phone, hot-wire the memory and decrypt it. Is this not technically possible?

Even if you bypass the phone and read the data directly, it will be jumbled nonsense. The only way to decrypt this hardware-encrypted data it is with the proper key, which is random and unique to each phone, embedded in the hardware, and can only be accessed be entering the password. iOS currently locks you out (or wipes the data completely, if the user enabled that feature) after 10 consecutive incorrect password attempts. Apple estimates that guessing a 6-digit password with these limitations would take 5+ years. An 8-digit password 15+ years. The FBI wants Apple to make a version of iOS that removes the 10 password attempt limitation and the data wipe option so that they can try to brute force guess the password.

Trying to break 256-bit AES encryption directly by guessing the key (1.1 x 10^77 possible keys) is not a practical option. Even if you only have to go through half of the possible decryption keys, It would take the fastest supercomputer in the world 917,326,310,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years to do it.

The "fastest" computers in the world are super cooled and use light (photons) instead of electricity for the circuitry. It's roughly the equivalent of going from horse and buggy to the automobile. The CPU can process 35 DVDs worth (1 terabit) of data per second. And that's what we know about in the public domain (albeit not retail), which doesn't take into account that the government keeps technology private for 30 years before it's released to the public.

So we could easily remove a dozen or so zeroes from that number, and a lot more if there are multiple CPUs being used for the task or even faster computers that aren't made known to the public.

I would never trust encryption to be bulletproof personally.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby t458 » Thu Feb 25, 2016

tdtwedt wrote:
jcz1 wrote:Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?


Absolutely not. FBI just wants a way to search everyone's phone without a search warrant and use the information as they please.

Good article on zerohedge.

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-2 ... oor-iphone


The Fed is making too much of a fuss I think. The CIA already has spyware added to cellphone apps and been happily collecting and tracking info from whoever they want for years, or so I have read. And this is not not limited to the US either. Anyone who uses a smart phone is fair game.

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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby natsb88 » Thu Feb 25, 2016

InfleXion wrote:
natsb88 wrote:
MaxGravy wrote:Seems like they could disassemble the phone, hot-wire the memory and decrypt it. Is this not technically possible?

Even if you bypass the phone and read the data directly, it will be jumbled nonsense. The only way to decrypt this hardware-encrypted data it is with the proper key, which is random and unique to each phone, embedded in the hardware, and can only be accessed be entering the password. iOS currently locks you out (or wipes the data completely, if the user enabled that feature) after 10 consecutive incorrect password attempts. Apple estimates that guessing a 6-digit password with these limitations would take 5+ years. An 8-digit password 15+ years. The FBI wants Apple to make a version of iOS that removes the 10 password attempt limitation and the data wipe option so that they can try to brute force guess the password.

Trying to break 256-bit AES encryption directly by guessing the key (1.1 x 10^77 possible keys) is not a practical option. Even if you only have to go through half of the possible decryption keys, It would take the fastest supercomputer in the world 917,326,310,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years to do it.

The "fastest" computers in the world are super cooled and use light (photons) instead of electricity for the circuitry. It's roughly the equivalent of going from horse and buggy to the automobile. The CPU can process 35 DVDs worth (1 terabit) of data per second. And that's what we know about in the public domain (albeit not retail), which doesn't take into account that the government keeps technology private for 30 years before it's released to the public.

So we could easily remove a dozen or so zeroes from that number, and a lot more if there are multiple CPUs being used for the task or even faster computers that aren't made known to the public.

I would never trust encryption to be bulletproof personally.

Go ahead and remove a dozen zeros from that number. In fact, remove two dozen. Heck, I'm feeling crazy, go ahead and knock three dozen off. We're now assuming the government has 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 of the world's fastest computers working on this case (and only this case) 24/7/365.

On average, it would still take over 900 trillion years to break 256-bit AES encryption. The earth is only what, 4.5 billion years old?

The NSA itself uses 256-bit AES encryption and it's approved for top secret government data. Breaking the encryption is not a viable option and you aren't likely to find a credible security expert in the world who thinks otherwise. You guys watch too many movies/shows with fake hacking :lol:

The truth is that your password is the potential weak point. Encryption doesn't help if the password that protects the key is weak. Passwords need to be long, use a mix of upper and lower case letters, numbers, and permitted special characters. Don't use dictionary words, birth dates, etc.

Brute force cracking the phone password is the only option for the FBI, and they can't do it unless Apple makes and hands them an iOS update that could be pushed onto a locked phone to remove the data wipe security feature and the password attempt throttling feature. That's what this is about. Such an update could easily fall into the wrong hands (it only takes one person), and once that cat is out of the bag, hundreds of millions of iOS devices would be vulnerable to even amateur criminals.

I don't mean to say that there aren't other ways for the government to get your data. Backdoors in apps, places you store backups, unencrypted communications, and so forth. But you shouldn't worry about the government actually breaking 256-bit AES encryption. Just don't make your password 1-2-3-4-5 :lol:


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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby tdtwedt » Thu Feb 25, 2016

Apple Responds To The Government: "No Court Has Ever Authorized What The Government Seeks"

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-02-2 ... ment-seeks
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby CaptainW » Thu Feb 25, 2016

db23 wrote:
jcz1 wrote:Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs to Break in to Terrorist's Phone?

Let's not kid ourselves here, Apple already has the necessary software / backdoor to crack their own phones, it's a matter of should they share it with the FBI...

I bet if anyone here or their friends or family were impacted by the terrorists actions they'd be saying yes...

Quite simply, hell no!
Even if I believed what they say, they will use it illegally, so no. Even if it meant every terrorist involved in the plot would be captured, I say no. Our Liberal government treats terrorist like fish.
Catch and release. Not to mention giving them five star Housing and treatment at our expense before releasing them to kill again.

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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby b4/Vj()z » Thu Feb 25, 2016

F.T.G.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Engineer » Thu Feb 25, 2016

In other news, a law preventing politicians from lying as part of their campaign strategy was declared unconstitutional.

So...we have an organization (FBI) which prides itself on extorting confessions through lies (told legally) to people who aren't allowed to lie in return, regularly charges people with felonies (for committing misdemeanors), so they can plea bargain down to the original offense, and the entire organization is overseen by politicians (and judges) who obtained their position through lying better than the other guy.

These people want public support to intimidate a corporation to produce hacking tools because of a war on "terrorism", which was originally defined as government rule through intimidation.

Am I missing anything? :pop:
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby lomalu » Thu Feb 25, 2016

Engineer wrote:In other news, a law preventing politicians from lying as part of their campaign strategy was declared unconstitutional.

So...we have an organization (FBI) which prides itself on extorting confessions through lies (told legally) to people who aren't allowed to lie in return, regularly charges people with felonies (for committing misdemeanors), so they can plea bargain down to the original offense, and the entire organization is overseen by politicians (and judges) who obtained their position through lying better than the other guy.

These people want public support to intimidate a corporation to produce hacking tools because of a war on "terrorism", which was originally defined as government rule through intimidation.

Am I missing anything? :pop:

:clap: that my friend is a concise "readers digest " version :thumbup:
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby InfleXion » Thu Feb 25, 2016

natsb88 wrote:
InfleXion wrote:
natsb88 wrote:
MaxGravy wrote:Seems like they could disassemble the phone, hot-wire the memory and decrypt it. Is this not technically possible?

Even if you bypass the phone and read the data directly, it will be jumbled nonsense. The only way to decrypt this hardware-encrypted data it is with the proper key, which is random and unique to each phone, embedded in the hardware, and can only be accessed be entering the password. iOS currently locks you out (or wipes the data completely, if the user enabled that feature) after 10 consecutive incorrect password attempts. Apple estimates that guessing a 6-digit password with these limitations would take 5+ years. An 8-digit password 15+ years. The FBI wants Apple to make a version of iOS that removes the 10 password attempt limitation and the data wipe option so that they can try to brute force guess the password.

Trying to break 256-bit AES encryption directly by guessing the key (1.1 x 10^77 possible keys) is not a practical option. Even if you only have to go through half of the possible decryption keys, It would take the fastest supercomputer in the world 917,326,310,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 years to do it.

The "fastest" computers in the world are super cooled and use light (photons) instead of electricity for the circuitry. It's roughly the equivalent of going from horse and buggy to the automobile. The CPU can process 35 DVDs worth (1 terabit) of data per second. And that's what we know about in the public domain (albeit not retail), which doesn't take into account that the government keeps technology private for 30 years before it's released to the public.

So we could easily remove a dozen or so zeroes from that number, and a lot more if there are multiple CPUs being used for the task or even faster computers that aren't made known to the public.

I would never trust encryption to be bulletproof personally.

Go ahead and remove a dozen zeros from that number. In fact, remove two dozen. Heck, I'm feeling crazy, go ahead and knock three dozen off. We're now assuming the government has 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 of the world's fastest computers working on this case (and only this case) 24/7/365.

On average, it would still take over 900 trillion years to break 256-bit AES encryption. The earth is only what, 4.5 billion years old?

The NSA itself uses 256-bit AES encryption and it's approved for top secret government data. Breaking the encryption is not a viable option and you aren't likely to find a credible security expert in the world who thinks otherwise. You guys watch too many movies/shows with fake hacking :lol:

The truth is that your password is the potential weak point. Encryption doesn't help if the password that protects the key is weak. Passwords need to be long, use a mix of upper and lower case letters, numbers, and permitted special characters. Don't use dictionary words, birth dates, etc.

Brute force cracking the phone password is the only option for the FBI, and they can't do it unless Apple makes and hands them an iOS update that could be pushed onto a locked phone to remove the data wipe security feature and the password attempt throttling feature. That's what this is about. Such an update could easily fall into the wrong hands (it only takes one person), and once that cat is out of the bag, hundreds of millions of iOS devices would be vulnerable to even amateur criminals.

I don't mean to say that there aren't other ways for the government to get your data. Backdoors in apps, places you store backups, unencrypted communications, and so forth. But you shouldn't worry about the government actually breaking 256-bit AES encryption. Just don't make your password 1-2-3-4-5 :lol:


Well, I was saying you could potentially remove a dozen zeroes per super computer, in which case a dozen of those computers could potentially do the job.

I'm not saying it's likely, just that it's not impossible numerically. Even though for iOS it's not possible because of lockout after X attempts... unless you pull the drive and slave it out so iOS isn't in the way...

It's not because of hacker movies, just PBS NOVA and my imagination :mrgreen:

/not.worried.just.not.trusting.either

... and I don't believe for a second that all this isn't just for theater to convince people that their phones are safe and secure. "Please let us hack your phones, because we're not doing it already, honest!"
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Fusion » Thu Feb 25, 2016

Couple thoughts:
As someone already said...very slippery slope
This is great marketing/PR for Apple standing up to the gubberment
It's also a mound of negative PR with something over 2 billion iPhones sold...lots of nervous users out there.

Lastly, If there was another attack on US soil like 911 and it could have been thwarted if there was a way to access terrorist phones, would you still be against it?
Having said that, the FBI has not said they cannot do their job without a de-encryption device.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby The Bullionaire » Thu Feb 25, 2016

Rubio gave a very good answer tonight in the GOP debate. Not a Rubio supporter, but I completely agree. The government isn't asking Apple to make a "back door" for them, they just want apple to take the self destruct mode off the phone which is why they can't proceed guessing the code without risk of loosing all of the incripted data. Apple easily has the capabilities of doing this, but they won't, because this is all a big marketing scheme for them. They are putting sales above moral and public safety. It wasn't even the guys phone, it was his employers who agreed to have it hacked into. There could be crucial intelligence on the phone that could stop future attacks and help capture more of these scumbags, but we can't even get to it because of Tim Cook's arrogance and greed. If you think the gov wants access to get by security measures in everyone's phone, they don't. They simply want to be able to put in the numbers themselves without fear of having the phone erase everything on them.

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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby fusion555 » Thu Feb 25, 2016

Its an easy fix, just give the phone to Apple, let them take all info from the phone and hand it back to the Gov. Will the Gov accept that? If all they want is the info yes, but if they want the backdoor into the phones, nooooo
Not sure if this way has been offered or asked for
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby silverbender » Thu Feb 25, 2016

It`s amazing how everyone is an Apple software engineer.I do not use Apple products but I may consider it if they do not redesign the security. They are just pandering and have no interest or knowledge.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby t458 » Thu Feb 25, 2016

fusion555 wrote:Its an easy fix, just give the phone to Apple, let them take all info from the phone and hand it back to the Gov. Will the Gov accept that? If all they want is the info yes, but if they want the backdoor into the phones, nooooo
Not sure if this way has been offered or asked for


This is very good point. I think the government actually wants access, not just info.

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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Engineer » Thu Feb 25, 2016

The Bullionaire wrote:Rubio gave a very good answer tonight in the GOP debate. Not a Rubio supporter, but I completely agree. The government isn't asking Apple to make a "back door" for them, they just want apple to take the self destruct mode off the phone which is why they can't proceed guessing the code without risk of loosing all of the incripted data. Apple easily has the capabilities of doing this, but they won't, because this is all a big marketing scheme for them. They are putting sales above moral and public safety. It wasn't even the guys phone, it was his employers who agreed to have it hacked into. There could be crucial intelligence on the phone that could stop future attacks and help capture more of these scumbags, but we can't even get to it because of Tim Cook's arrogance and greed. If you think the gov wants access to get by security measures in everyone's phone, they don't. They simply want to be able to put in the numbers themselves without fear of having the phone erase everything on them.


The FBI already had access to that information, and lost it by not following protocols.

The information would have been easy to retrieve if they would have simply taken the phone to its home network to reset the passcode. That's ALL they needed to do...literally just take the damn phone home so it didn't think it was stolen.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160225/15240333713/we-read-apples-65-page-filing-calling-bullshit-justice-department-so-you-dont-have-to.shtml

Rubio says this is all about Tim Cook's arrogance and greed. If you look at the facts, however, the FBI is arrogantly demanding hacking tools congress isn't willing to give, while Cook is arrogantly selling Rubio a phone that's too good for his constituents.
Last edited by Engineer on Fri Feb 26, 2016, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby silverbender » Thu Feb 25, 2016

I agree they just want easy access, no regards for the future or understanding of how things work or will change in the future and the consequences of what they want.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby Engineer » Fri Feb 26, 2016

silverbender wrote:I agree they just want easy access, no regards for the future or understanding of how things work or will change in the future and the consequences of what they want.


The consequences are a bit scary. Say your local PD gets the key to open your phone...

They set up a drug checkpoint, detain you, search your phone, and find a text joking about hookers and blow. That's all they need to confiscate your new truck, which they auction to fund new SWAT gear and a margarita machine, leaving you owing $50k to the bank and no work truck.

The Manhattan DA already has 150+ phones that he wants loaded with GovOS. If the FBI forces Apple to build it, there's no way this stop at one phone.
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Re: Should Apple Build the Software the FBI Needs?

Postby silverbender » Fri Feb 26, 2016

I saw on my local news last year either the state or a police jurisdiction was trying to pass a law allowing an officer who pulled someone over to check there phone for evidence of texting while driving which is not illegal in Ohio or anything else they could find, another trying to make it illegal to video cops.
Law enforcement has no respect for the rights of citizens thus more and more laws to make it easier to arrest someone for a violation that is already a law on the books.
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