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Idea for a Crytpo Investment

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SilverDoge
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Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby SilverDoge » Wed Apr 10, 2019

Imagine you wanted to buy an income producing asset like a hotel, storage unit business, RV Park, etc that generates regular, predictable, steady income, but costs potentially million(s) in up-front costs. One would either have to have a large fortune saved up and risk your capital nest egg, or go to a bank and beg for money...and pay interest on debt until you've paid it back. But what if there were another way?

Now imagine you are an average investor with $10k that you want to put to work. This amount isn't enough to buy an income producing asset. One could buy a REIT or other type of investment vehicle, but you have no control or influence on what type of properties are purchased within that REIT.

Let's explore an option using crypto instead. Let's say I find an asset I want to purchase. I've done all the research, made the findings public, and I need a million dollars to buy this asset that will generate a revenue of $250,000 per year. Normally a large chunk of that revenue would go to pay back the bank loan, but what if there were no loan. Instead, let's say I conducted an ICO funding round to raise the capital. Investors could purchase my newly created ERC-20 crypto token. So let's say that $10k investor now has 10,000 units of this crypto token (starting at $1 per token) - lets call it HOTL. How does the investor and the owner of the asset make money?

The token is listed on some exchange and freely traded. With the revenue generated from the asset, I as the owner am contractually required (based on my ICO terms) to market buy HOTL at whatever the market price is, on a weekly basis with the generated revenue - let's say 80% of all profits (owner keeps 20%). Then, I burn that supply of HOTL so it no longer exists. And I keep doing this indefinitely. The investor does not have shares or ownership of the asset, but can choose when to redeem his HOTL token for ETH/Cash whenever he wants. The longer he waits, the higher price he'll get when he redeems. If a million HOTL tokens exist after ICO, and as an example lets say during the first year every token redeemed got a 100% profit (or $2 per token). Then, at the end of the first year there would only be 900,000 HOTL tokens remaining. The more patient you are, the higher the price you'd likely get. And there is minimal risk involved compared to other crypto projects which often have no real utility. In this instance you would know the physical location of the underlying asset, and the owner would be the guy running the show.

Interested in any feedback both good and bad. Am I making poor assumptions? If this was a proven asset with proven returns would this not be a much better investment than other options with similar risk levels? What is stopping a person from doing this today, just the SEC? I see this as the next step of crowdfunding worthy projects. Of course some people will try to scam others, so perhaps the owner would be required to register the asset or token with a government entity so there is minimal risk of an exit-scam, but I'm okay with that.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby Brick's » Wed Apr 10, 2019

I'm going to leave the crypto aspects of this to those who know more than me. Crowdfunding however, is becoming increasingly popular and I've taken the dip into two (of dozens I've considered) with minimal amounts. Less than I have in crypto which is minimal. So, show me the worthy projects and I'll consider. That simple for me. If I don't understand the crypto part of it, I'll run it by you guys for feedback.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby SilverDoge » Wed Apr 10, 2019

Brick's wrote:... show me the worthy projects and I'll consider. That simple for me. If I don't understand the crypto part of it, I'll run it by you guys for feedback.


I don't have any individual project in mind yet, and wouldn't for at least several years. I'm just brainstorming the concept currently. I find the token economics very interesting, as well as the ownership structure.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby Shortstack McAygee » Wed Apr 10, 2019

SilverDoge wrote:The longer he waits, the higher price he'll get when he redeems.

...

The more patient you are, the higher the price you'd likely get.


I'm not so sure that assumption is automatically guaranteed.

Though on the flip side, what's preventing the operator of this to have to keep paying out *indefinitely*?
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby ZIPS5000 » Wed Apr 10, 2019

My first thought was it sounds like some type of Ponzi scheme... I know that is not your intention, but based on my brief reading of that description it has several of the parts to make one.

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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby bigjohn » Wed Apr 10, 2019

This seems overly complicated for no reason. You can fund any business venture by debt or equity. This is no different than finding your venture via equity but adding a complex element of attaching cryptocurrency. The only way it’s risk-free (from loss via crypto instability) is if it’s fully backed up by real estate and every token equals a dollar equals that percentage of ownership in the asset… Except you’re exposed to additional risk by not actually having it tied to the asset as you would in an equity investment. If it’s theoretically backed by real estate, the only reason tokens would trade higher than the equity position is pure speculation. My thoughts are running a little wild and I’m having trouble following my own train of thought on this but it sounds like a no brainer for the person creating and selling the tokens but a lot of uncertainty for those buying it. I think this is a brilliant idea for the guy buying 1 million Dollar building and conducting the ICO, that’s where I would love to be involved in. For the guy wanting to invest $10,000, if you want to invest in crypto then invest in crypto, if you want to invest in real estate, there are ways to do that.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby Southpaw » Wed Apr 10, 2019

This sounds like what security token offerings are trying to capitalize on. There are trillions of dollars of private equity to unlock. The St Regis in Aspen recently did an STO offering where they unlocked around 15% of equity to share holders. In the US these offerings are only offered to accredited investors though. Lots of hurdles to jump through from the SEC.

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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby SilverDoge » Wed Apr 10, 2019

Shortstack McAygee wrote:
SilverDoge wrote:The longer he waits, the higher price he'll get when he redeems.

...

The more patient you are, the higher the price you'd likely get.


I'm not so sure that assumption is automatically guaranteed.

Though on the flip side, what's preventing the operator of this to have to keep paying out *indefinitely*?


The assumption is not guaranteed, correct. But more likely. Being that it would be a freely traded token, the market would dictate price. If all token holders decided that nobody would sell for at least a 25% ROI then that would be the market. But in reality, life happens and people need to liquidate investments for cash sometimes. But the token economics would actually benefit longer term holders if people sold cheaply.... because then the generated revenue from the asset would be buying more tokens and permanently burning them, thereby reducing the supply.

The operator would in fact have to pay indefinitely. In my scenario, the operator would keep 20% of profits and always have to buy the token supply with the remaining 80% of profits. In 40 years time, there may only be 30,000 (as an example) HOTL tokens remaining. And as the supply gets closer and closer to zero, each HOTL token becomes exponentially more valuable. It could get to the point where each token is worth $100 or even $1,000 or more, because people are holding out and not selling so that they can garner the most value. One could bequeath these tokens to heirs or charities who cash in when desired.

This is a main difference between traditional and crypto crowd-sourced funding. You don't get a guaranteed rate of return, but with patience you could really make some serious money down the road.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby SilverDoge » Wed Apr 10, 2019

ZIPS5000 wrote:My first thought was it sounds like some type of Ponzi scheme... I know that is not your intention, but based on my brief reading of that description it has several of the parts to make one.


Could you expand on that for me and tell me why you think is sounds like a ponzi?

Ponzi schemes use new investor money to pay off old investors. This example project would only have one round of original investor funding, and the revenue generated from rents, or hotel stays, or storage space, go to purchasing the HOTL tokens off the market on the exchange every week. There are no new investors to the project.

Now people could decide that they want to own HOTL tokens on the secondary market (which would be the exchange(s) that HOTL is listed on), but that doesn't go to the owner. That money would be original investors liquidating their positions to other investors on that secondary market.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby ZIPS5000 » Wed Apr 10, 2019

SilverDoge wrote:
ZIPS5000 wrote:My first thought was it sounds like some type of Ponzi scheme... I know that is not your intention, but based on my brief reading of that description it has several of the parts to make one.


Could you expand on that for me and tell me why you think is sounds like a ponzi?

Ponzi schemes use new investor money to pay off old investors. This example project would only have one round of original investor funding, and the revenue generated from rents, or hotel stays, or storage space, go to purchasing the HOTL tokens off the market on the exchange every week. There are no new investors to the project.

Now people could decide that they want to own HOTL tokens on the secondary market (which would be the exchange(s) that HOTL is listed on), but that doesn't go to the owner. That money would be original investors liquidating their positions to other investors on that secondary market.


Mainly the lack of details and the promise of a whatever % return which would be higher in the future. I recognize that a true ponzi scheme needs new money to pay old money, but the 3 paragraph summary describes the start of something that won't end well in the future (even taking crytpo out of the equation). Basically the mention of some guaranteed risk free return.

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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby SilverDoge » Wed Apr 10, 2019

bigjohn wrote:This seems overly complicated for no reason. You can fund any business venture by debt or equity. This is no different than finding your venture via equity but adding a complex element of attaching cryptocurrency. The only way it’s risk-free (from loss via crypto instability) is if it’s fully backed up by real estate and every token equals a dollar equals that percentage of ownership in the asset… Except you’re exposed to additional risk by not actually having it tied to the asset as you would in an equity investment. If it’s theoretically backed by real estate, the only reason tokens would trade higher than the equity position is pure speculation. My thoughts are running a little wild and I’m having trouble following my own train of thought on this but it sounds like a no brainer for the person creating and selling the tokens but a lot of uncertainty for those buying it. I think this is a brilliant idea for the guy buying 1 million Dollar building and conducting the ICO, that’s where I would love to be involved in. For the guy wanting to invest $10,000, if you want to invest in crypto then invest in crypto, if you want to invest in real estate, there are ways to do that.


It is a bit complicated, but there are reasons. This example is essentially being funded by a form of equity. The owner is selling 80% of the generated revenue streams from the cash-flowing asset to investors. But by using a cryptocurrency token he isn't giving out a guaranteed rate of return. Using this model, and burning the token supply as people liquidate their "shares" creates a unique business model that can really pay off for the long term patient holders (or their heirs). What other type of model allows this? Usually if a person buys "safe" income producing assets, they are set up with a boring yet safe yield. This model flips it around.

When you say that the only reason the market would trade higher than the equity position is pure speculation that is true to a point. There is no guaranteed rate of return so if people need cash now, they might actually list their tokens at a negative ROI to liquidate. A patient investor might capitalize on that and scoop up those tokens and sit on them.

Imagine an investor who bought during the ICO who has 10,000 tokens. Ten years later, the supply might be only 30% of the original supply, and current tokens might be trading at $7. So if he liquidates, he banks a $60,000 profit. But he knows that if he waits another 5 years, perhaps the supply will be down to 13% and each token could be worth $20. It creates buzz and excitement around a "boring" asset, and yes people will speculate and want to buy this token, driving up price, even as the supply gets burned every single week. And while the token holder doesn't "own" the real estate, his token ownership gives him the rights to the income from that real estate, but by cashing in his interests, he no longer owns the asset. Once you sell your HOTL you get no more returns.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby SilverDoge » Wed Apr 10, 2019

Southpaw wrote:This sounds like what security token offerings are trying to capitalize on. There are trillions of dollars of private equity to unlock. The St Regis in Aspen recently did an STO offering where they unlocked around 15% of equity to share holders. In the US these offerings are only offered to accredited investors though. Lots of hurdles to jump through from the SEC.


Correct. Which is why projects like these ought to be around for the little guy who isn't an accredited investor, and the owner can't afford a team of lawyers and SEC hurdles because the asset is small potatoes. For some reason I can take $10k and gamble it in the stock market, or take it to a literal casino and lose it all in 10 minutes. But when it comes to the example project I mentioned, Joe Q Public isn't allowed to invest his money. Total BS.

But perhaps there is hope?

https://www.coindesk.com/lawmakers-reintroduce-bill-to-exempt-tokens-from-us-securities-laws?utm_source=BlockchainBites&utm_medium=Email&utm_campaign=2019-04-10
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby Brick's » Wed Apr 10, 2019

SilverDoge wrote:
Brick's wrote:... show me the worthy projects and I'll consider. That simple for me. If I don't understand the crypto part of it, I'll run it by you guys for feedback.


I don't have any individual project in mind yet, and wouldn't for at least several years. I'm just brainstorming the concept currently. I find the token economics very interesting, as well as the ownership structure.


Apologies Doger, I didn't mean you personally. I meant any token based crowdfunding project. I should have been less vague. I get what you are doing here and if anything ever looks good to me, I know who to turn to.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby SilverDoge » Wed Apr 10, 2019

ZIPS5000 wrote:
SilverDoge wrote:
ZIPS5000 wrote:My first thought was it sounds like some type of Ponzi scheme... I know that is not your intention, but based on my brief reading of that description it has several of the parts to make one.


Could you expand on that for me and tell me why you think is sounds like a ponzi?

Ponzi schemes use new investor money to pay off old investors. This example project would only have one round of original investor funding, and the revenue generated from rents, or hotel stays, or storage space, go to purchasing the HOTL tokens off the market on the exchange every week. There are no new investors to the project.

Now people could decide that they want to own HOTL tokens on the secondary market (which would be the exchange(s) that HOTL is listed on), but that doesn't go to the owner. That money would be original investors liquidating their positions to other investors on that secondary market.


Mainly the lack of details and the promise of a whatever % return which would be higher in the future. I recognize that a true ponzi scheme needs new money to pay old money, but the 3 paragraph summary describes the start of something that won't end well in the future (even taking crytpo out of the equation). Basically the mention of some guaranteed risk free return.


There is no promise of a guaranteed % rate of return. And it surely isn't a risk free return (there is no such thing).

Can you elaborate on the why, behind your statement that I made red. Truly curious. If I do pursue this someday I really would like to hear all the pitfalls and negatives.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby Shortstack McAygee » Wed Apr 10, 2019

SilverDoge wrote:...an income producing asset ... that generates regular, predictable, steady income...


And if that revenue takes an unexpected significant and/or sustained hit?

There goes some of that price-premium for a coin-holder. How will the market account for that at the time & for the future?

IOW, it's more than just typical market supply & demand.


On the operator side?

What happens when there's a significant and/or sustained hit when it comes to operating costs, but can't jack up revenue enough to cover them?

Remember, these payouts are being funded by revenue -- not bottom-line profit. Are you willing to personally eat those costs, which could exceed your hypothetical 20% cut, as you shell out that much-needed revenue that you otherwise could have tapped into?


What happens should the operator become incapacitated? Will a trustworthy person take over this operation & continue the payouts? Will the market have enough faith?

What happens when the operator kicks the bucket? Would somebody want to buy this operation, as is? And would they be trustworthy enough to continue with the payouts? Because it sounds like it would have to be a cash-deal... Otherwise, that revenue would have otherwise paid off any sort of bank loan. And now you just severely limited your pool of potential buyers, because of that.


Anyway, I'm not saying this would or wouldn't work. Hey, go for it.

I'm just looking at some reasons why this *wouldn't* be a good idea, either for the operator, and/or the coin-holders.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby SilverDoge » Wed Apr 10, 2019

Shortstack McAygee wrote:
SilverDoge wrote:...an income producing asset ... that generates regular, predictable, steady income...


And if that revenue takes an unexpected significant and/or sustained hit?

There goes some of that price-premium for a coin-holder. How will the market account for that at the time & for the future?

IOW, it's more than just typical market supply & demand.


Great post; thanks for the questions. If the revenue takes a hit then token holders will see less market buyback during the down period. This is why it is important to pick a project with minimal risk and as steady a revenue stream as possible that mitigates negative market factors.

Shortstack McAygee wrote:On the operator side?

What happens when there's a significant and/or sustained hit when it comes to operating costs, but can't jack up revenue enough to cover them?

Remember, these payouts are being funded by revenue -- not bottom-line profit. Are you willing to personally eat those costs, which could exceed your hypothetical 20% cut, as you shell out that much-needed revenue that you otherwise could have tapped into?

As you mentioned, the investors get 80% of the profits. There would be budgeted maintenance and upgrade costs similar to any business. Additionally, this would be thought of up front. So as the owner I would likely retain 5-10% of the ICO tokens (with a minimum 3 year lock up). Also, the initial outlay of funds would include some sort of emergency fund. If all that is tapped out, then I would have to delve into my 20% indeed.


Shortstack McAygee wrote:What happens should the operator become incapacitated? Will a trustworthy person take over this operation & continue the payouts? Will the market have enough faith?

What happens when the operator kicks the bucket? Would somebody want to buy this operation, as is? And would they be trustworthy enough to continue with the payouts? Because it sounds like it would have to be a cash-deal... Otherwise, that revenue would have otherwise paid off any sort of bank loan. And now you just severely limited your pool of potential buyers, because of that.

The investment would have to be held in some sort of LLC or Trust with explicit legal wording that the 80% of profits goes to the purchase of the HOTL tokens. Therefore, as you allude to, if I attempted to sell I would not get anywhere near a market price like an unencumbered property because 80% of the profits are already spoken for - but I'm aware of that fact up front. So if my children chose not to take over the business, then either I would have to sell it at a discounted rate (and I could include some of the ICO tokens into this sale too), or perhaps transition to an employee already working the property, who would take over and become the owner, for a certain percentage of that 20% equity, etc.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby Shortstack McAygee » Wed Apr 10, 2019

Okay, I'm confused now...

Seems like the terms "revenue" & "profits" keep being used interchangeably.

Reality dictates otherwise -- even in a case like this.


Which is being used for the buy-backs?

80% of revenue? 80% of gross profit? 80% of (after-tax) net profit?


Speaking of which: How would taxing entities (fed/state/local) treat this?
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby SilverDoge » Wed Apr 10, 2019

Shortstack McAygee wrote:Okay, I'm confused now...

Seems like the terms "revenue" & "profits" keep being used interchangeably.

Reality dictates otherwise -- even in a case like this.


Which is being used for the buy-backs?

80% of revenue? 80% of gross profit? 80% of (after-tax) net profit?

Speaking of which: How would taxing entities (fed/state/local) treat this?


80% of profits would go to investors. Let's say this project cleared $40k per month. After utilities, maintenance, labor, repairs, emergency fund, taxes, etc perhaps we're at a profit of $20k. So that month, $16,000 (80%) would be used to buy back HOTL at market rates and burn the token - done on a weekly basis. If that buys 10,000 tokens that month, then at the end of the first year, 120,000 of the tokens would be burned. Of course the market would gyrate but I made these numbers smooth just as an example. The token burn data, outstanding supply, rate of burn, etc would all be publicly available data, and provable on the blockchain.

As to the tax side, it wouldn't be any different than any other business really. Individual investors pay their capital gains tax once they liquidate their shares, and the business pays tax on retained earnings.
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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby Bucketeer » Thu Apr 11, 2019

I live in a trailer park. It's cheap living. I've asked the owners to sell it to me, with a $250K down payment for an asking price of 7X income and a 10 year mortgage. They declined,and said the park was for their retirement income.

I had rentals in Chicago. Getting the rent was a bitch. Trailer parks are very different, most people are on SSA, SSI or SSDI. They are older people, and usually responsible.

I'm interested, and watching.

PS - You need a better business plan Travis. That's why I am a Bear. Why go ICO? Cash is King.

PPS: Partnerships sucks. Sell coins or shares. As investors, we need the right to vote you out. I'd prefer shares. From previous deals, I know that you are savvy, and have my trust in business dealings. The ICO seems like a bad concept.

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Re: Idea for a Crytpo Investment

Postby SilverDoge » Thu Apr 11, 2019

Bucketeer wrote:I live in a trailer park. It's cheap living. I've asked the owners to sell it to me, with a $250K down payment for an asking price of 7X income and a 10 year mortgage. They declined,and said the park was for their retirement income.

I had rentals in Chicago. Getting the rent was a bitch. Trailer parks are very different, most people are on SSA, SSI or SSDI. They are older people, and usually responsible.

I'm interested, and watching.

PS - You need a better business plan Travis. That's why I am a Bear. Why go ICO? Cash is King.

PPS: Partnerships sucks. Sell coins or shares. As investors, we need the right to vote you out. I'd prefer shares. From previous deals, I know that you are savvy, and have my trust in business dealings. The ICO seems like a bad concept.

Just my nickel at the bar.


RV parks can be a great revenue stream, and a perfect way to retire by owning/managing one. The demand is only increasing, and you are right about the more responsible individuals.

Cash is king (for now). And that is why the seller would receive cash from me as the buyer. But my thinking was to raise funds via an ICO for several reasons. First, I would have to sell the ETH/BTC that was generated from the ICO to give to the seller, unless the seller wanted crypto of course. So the seller would get their cash, and I as the owner would manage and maintain the property and get 20% of the profits. I understand the desire to want to have voting shares so that you could vote out bad management, but I really don't want to be micromanaged. My incentives as the owner would align with those of the investors. The largest risk is fraud or graft on my part. To combat this, I would have published accounting books on a website for any investor to monitor, and that would be a requirement of the ICO terms. Therefore, even after I pass on or sell, the managing person or entity would be required to continue publishing this data. I would publish exactly what I was paying labor, contractors, utilities, taxes, etc, and the number of HOTL tokens bought back and burned by the owner (me) would all be public information. And just because investors wouldn't have voting rights, doesn't mean they couldn't sue for cause if necessary.

For crypto people this might make sense, but for an average business person unfamiliar with crypto I do admit it seems a bit complex and perhaps not worth the extra work. Maybe I need a flashy YouTube video...

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