The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Discussion of all things crypto and blockchain.
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spincity
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby spincity » Wed Jan 03, 2018

Whats the longest you folks have waited to get a BTC transfer confirmed?
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby SilverDoge » Wed Jan 03, 2018

spincity wrote:Whats the longest you folks have waited to get a BTC transfer confirmed?


4-8 hours. It happened while I slept so I can't say for sure.
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby Fabio » Wed Jan 03, 2018

spincity wrote:Whats the longest you folks have waited to get a BTC transfer confirmed?


I transferred a bit today, took about 30 minutes. Was going to convert to ETH first for faster transfer but didn't need the btc right away for a trade and once I convert to ETH it gets very hard for me to spend my beloved ETH on another coin :lol:
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby joefro » Wed Jan 03, 2018

What exchange do you recommend for micro cap coins? I'm interested in picking up some small positions in HYP, DBET, etc... but there are no markets for them on Binance or Bittrex.

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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby natsb88 » Wed Jan 03, 2018

joefro wrote:What exchange do you recommend for micro cap coins? I'm interested in picking up some small positions in HYP, DBET, etc... but there are no markets for them on Binance or Bittrex.

Cryptopia has both of those.

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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby SilverDoge » Thu Jan 04, 2018

natsb88 wrote:
joefro wrote:What exchange do you recommend for micro cap coins? I'm interested in picking up some small positions in HYP, DBET, etc... but there are no markets for them on Binance or Bittrex.

Cryptopia has both of those.


Correct. Cryptopia has a ton of coins. Many of the big players and a lot of small guys too. It is out of New Zealand.
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby joefro » Thu Jan 04, 2018

Learned a harsh lesson dealing with exchanges like Bittrex today. When trading one coin into another, DO NOT assume that the exchange rates they are giving you are even close to the ratio of their values in USD. I always assumed they were at least close enough that the difference was insignificant to the gains made by a smart trading move.

I just traded one coin for another and when I did the math it was off by 18%! The value of coins I traded away was about $2500 so I just threw away $450 on the EXCHANGE RATE! It's crazy that the exchange rate on Bittrex could be so far off from the ratio of the two coins' values in USD. :evil:

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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby natsb88 » Thu Jan 04, 2018

joefro wrote:Learned a harsh lesson dealing with exchanges like Bittrex today. When trading one coin into another, DO NOT assume that the exchange rates they are giving you are even close to the ratio of their values in USD. I always assumed they were at least close enough that the difference was insignificant to the gains made by a smart trading move.

I just traded one coin for another and when I did the math it was off by 18%! The value of coins I traded away was about $2500 so I just threw away $450 on the EXCHANGE RATE! It's crazy that the exchange rate on Bittrex could be so far off from the ratio of the two coins' values in USD. :evil:

I don't understand. The USD values on Bittrex are just the current bid/ask/last/high/low in BTC multiplied by the current BTC price shown at the bottom of every page. It is rounded to two decimal places, which could make a sizeable difference if trading high volumes of a low value coin. Regardless, trading one coin for another is all done in coins, not dollars.

If you are referring to the "$" markets on Bittrex, those are Tether (USDT) markets, not actual USD markets. Tether is crypto supposedly backed 1:1 by US dollars in a bank account, but is under scrutiny for massive supply expansion in recent months. The USDT pairs don't precisely match the BTC pairs just due to different trading activity (if this were the stock market, there would probably be high frequency trading playing arbitrage). The BTC pairs typically have much higher volume than the USDT pairs. USDT is also fairly suspect at this point. I would avoid holding USDT.

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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby Bucketeer » Thu Jan 04, 2018

+1
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby joefro » Thu Jan 04, 2018

I dont understand it either. I am not referring to USDT markets, but to the coin to coin markets. In this case, I used Bittrex to exchange Ripple into Bitcoin. At the time of the sale, Ripple was worth $3.22 and Bitcoin was worth $15477. Both were only fluctuating within a percent or two for the period of time before and after I was selling. Certainly nothing close to the 15-20% I lost in the exchange. All of these values were taken from coinmarketcap at the time of the sale. I know all exchanges have somewhat different values but the prices were relatively stable and I wouldn't think they'd be off by 20%!

I traded 800 ripple, which at $3.22 has a value of $2,576. I received 0.13746348 BTC, which at $15477 has a value of $2,127. So $2576 goes in, $2127 comes out for a whopping loss of $448!

The XRP/BTC rate that Bittrex used for the trade was 0.00017226, yet $3.22/$15477 = 0.00020805. That is a BIG difference!

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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby joefro » Thu Jan 04, 2018

This is the trade info in Bittrex:

XRPBTCtrade.png
XRPBTCtrade.png (5.18 KiB) Viewed 653 times

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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby Recluse » Thu Jan 04, 2018

joefro wrote:The XRP/BTC rate that Bittrex used for the trade was 0.00017226, yet $3.22/$15477 = 0.00020805. That is a BIG difference!


It looks like bittrex valued the ripple at $15477 X .00017226 = $2.666
$2.66 X 800 = $2128
Last edited by Recluse on Thu Jan 04, 2018, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby texmex66 » Thu Jan 04, 2018

joefro wrote:This is the trade info in Bittrex:

XRPBTCtrade.png


Joe, the coinmarketcap price is an average of all the exhanges that trade a certain coin. Ripple was over $4 in Korea yesterday which pushed average price to around $3.85ish. When i sold mine it was showing $3.21 on Binance or Bittrex i cant remember. But CMC is not the true price you will receive depending on what exchange you use. The $4+ price was XRP/KRW Korean Won lol. Im still learning too.

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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby natsb88 » Thu Jan 04, 2018

joefro wrote:I dont understand it either. I am not referring to USDT markets, but to the coin to coin markets. In this case, I used Bittrex to exchange Ripple into Bitcoin. At the time of the sale, Ripple was worth $3.22 and Bitcoin was worth $15477. Both were only fluctuating within a percent or two for the period of time before and after I was selling. Certainly nothing close to the 15-20% I lost in the exchange. All of these values were taken from coinmarketcap at the time of the sale. I know all exchanges have somewhat different values but the prices were relatively stable and I wouldn't think they'd be off by 20%!

I traded 800 ripple, which at $3.22 has a value of $2,576. I received 0.13746348 BTC, which at $15477 has a value of $2,127. So $2576 goes in, $2127 comes out for a whopping loss of $448!

The XRP/BTC rate that Bittrex used for the trade was 0.00017226, yet $3.22/$15477 = 0.00020805. That is a BIG difference!

I get your frustration, but Bittrex isn't the bad guy here. Bittrex doesn't "use a rate" for the trade and nobody cheated you. You enter the quantity and you enter the price in BTC, and Bittrex shows you the fee and the total before you submit the order. You can choose to match the current bid or ask from the Bittrex order book, or enter your own price to set a limit order to execute when it hits your target price. This is all very transparent.

The CoinMarketCap price is a volume-weighted average of every exchange trading the coin, so the CMC price isn't an exact match for any given exchange. The CMC price is also not an exact match for the Bittrex BTC price that is used to calculate the USD values on Bittrex. In times of spikes and drops the price for a given coin can vary significantly from one exchange to another. Look at the Market tab on CMC to compare exchanges. If you want top dollar, you may have to transfer your coin to a different exchange to make the trade. Often times that isn't easy or even feasible, which is why we see those price discrepancies. There is an opportunity for arbitrage if you can make it work.

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/ripple/#markets

The top 20 exchanges by XRP volume currently range from $2.66 - $3.97, with Bittrex at the lower end of that. But again, the price on Bittrex is set by the free market of actual orders on the books at Bittrex. It is not set by CoinMarketCap or set arbitrarily by Bittrex the company.

xrp.JPG
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joefro
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby joefro » Thu Jan 04, 2018

Thanks for the explanation guys, this all makes perfect sense. A great lesson to learn no doubt, I just wish it wasn't on one of my larger trades. Hopefully others can learn from my mistake as well. I've exchanged many combinations of coins on Bittrex and usually just do the "Last" choice as opposed to Bid or Ask because the trade executes right away and every time I've tried bid or ask the prices change so fast my order doesn't fill a lot of the time and I've always been satistfied with the "Last" price. I guess none of the other coins I bought were as skewed as XRP was due to the Korean exchange.

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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby Recluse » Fri Jan 05, 2018

joefro wrote:Thanks for the explanation guys, this all makes perfect sense. A great lesson to learn no doubt,


On a related note. If you are going to accept crypto as payment in trades here, check your exchange for the price and do not rely solely on coinmarketcap.com. It can easily cost you 3 or 4%
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby SilverDoge » Fri Jan 05, 2018

Recluse wrote:
joefro wrote:Thanks for the explanation guys, this all makes perfect sense. A great lesson to learn no doubt,


On a related note. If you are going to accept crypto as payment in trades here, check your exchange for the price and do not rely solely on coinmarketcap.com. It can easily cost you 3 or 4%


Exactly right. One should ideally specify which exchange price is being used up front, or if the CMC price is being used.
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby spincity » Fri Jan 05, 2018

I noticed today that the exchanges were way behind coinmarketcap , how typical is that?
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby SilverDoge » Fri Jan 05, 2018

spincity wrote:I noticed today that the exchanges were way behind coinmarketcap , how typical is that?


I think you have it the other way around. Exchanges update in real-time. CMC likely uses APIs to pull in the data.
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Re: The Bitcoin (crypto) Beginner's Guide

Postby natsb88 » Fri Jan 05, 2018

The exchanges can't be "behind" CoinMarketCap. CoinMarketCap isn't buying or selling, they are just reporting. CoinMarketCap could be slightly behind the exchanges.

There still seems to be some confusion on how crypto prices work. Being decentralized, there is no single official price for a crypto. Prices are set independently on each exchange by the actual trading activity on each exchange. The price can even vary within an exchange for the same coin on different trading pairs (i.e. BTC-XRP and USDT-XRP, since Ripple was a recent example).

CoinMarketCap collects trading data from numerous exchanges and reports a volume averaged price for each crypto. You can see all of the different exchanges that contribute to the volume averaged price for any given crypto by clicking the Markets tab on CoinMarketCap. There is likely a slight delay in collecting the information from each exchanges' API, processing it, and displaying it on the CMC site.

It is much smaller and less noticeable, but we do have the same type of discrepancies in precious metal pricing. The prices reported by Kitco are often a few cents different from the data feed that dealers use on their website. Different dealers use different feeds and different feeds get their data from different sources, so they don't always match up exactly. We see much wider variation in cryptos from one exchange to another than we see in precious metal prices or stocks because crypto is a younger market with fewer players, some exchanges cater to a specific user base (country) and have a bit of a monopoly on that market, and we don't have high frequency trading computers on the floor of every exchange to play arbitrage and eat up the price differences from one exchange to another like we do in the stock market.


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