Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

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Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby SilverDoge » Sat Jun 10, 2017

If you only watch one video that relates to bitcoin or crypto currencies, this is the one you need to watch.

This is ground-breaking how Andreas lays out why we have arrived at a new paradigm on how we view "money"

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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby Long John » Sat Jun 10, 2017

Thanks, Travis. Andreas has an everyday way of explaining concepts that are easy to grasp. I loved his (probably fictional) example of the tribes on separate islands who used huge carved stones as a medium of currency. One day a canoe or raft sank while transporting a stone, but it remained a token of currency because both tribes agreed the stone was there at the bottom of the ocean. They agreed the tribe which was supposed to receive it, was richer by one carved stone in their system of trade.

And thus crypto currency was born. (My add, my bad! :lol: )

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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby SilverDoge » Mon Jun 12, 2017

Long John wrote:Thanks, Travis. Andreas has an everyday way of explaining concepts that are easy to grasp. I loved his (probably fictional) example of the tribes on separate islands who used huge carved stones as a medium of currency. One day a canoe or raft sank while transporting a stone, but it remained a token of currency because both tribes agreed the stone was there at the bottom of the ocean. They agreed the tribe which was supposed to receive it, was richer by one carved stone in their system of trade.

And thus crypto currency was born. (My add, my bad! :lol: )


I don't think his example was fictional, but I've not researched it enough to know for sure. I love his articulation in this video, and I've watched it a second time to pick up some extra nuances. Mike Maloney is big on using proper language in regards to currency and money, where money requires the "store of value" part and currency does not; its focus is on "medium of exchange" and "unit of account".

The beauty of crypto is it blends these features. Bitcoin can act as your storage of value, while PIVX, Dash, Monero, LTC, another currency based crypto, can be the medium of exchange and unit of account (bitcoin does this too, just slower and for higher transaction costs) - and it is super SIMPLE to swap between these crypto assets, unlike swapping fiat to PMs and back.
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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby bigjohn » Mon Jun 12, 2017

I almost posted at the other thread but didn't want the thread drift to continue. As I have said before, I am pulling my head out of my azz and i'm taking the time to learn about crypto currency. I have purchased some, I have traded some, I have read and watched videos and I am on board with a lot of principles.

That said, I disagree with this video. The gentleman is extremely well spoken and it was a pleasure to listen to. What I found myself feeling is that I am watching an informational. He talks about properties of money and doesn't fail to mention where today's money fails and where crypto currency excels. He doesn't, however, mention volatility. While all other money is volatile, it's not nearly as volatile as current state of crypto currency.

He mentions how in a perfect bartering system you can trade haircuts for chicken eggs and oil changes, etc. but it's impossible to keep track how many haircuts an oil change costs today and how many haircuts an oil change will cost tomorrow. He says that crypto currency solves the problems we have with current "money" but how does it in this case? If I am the one offering an oil change, and you were the one carrying ETH, you could have showed up at my shop three months ago, offered me 1 ETH for an oil change and, if I accepted, you would have been one happy camper. Now, three months later, your car is due for an oil change again and you show up to my shop and I say I want 1 ETH for an oil change, you will be pretty unhappy. The matter fact, you will probably ask for 10 oil changes for the same 1 ETH you paid last time. How is this any different having to keep track of everything?

Again, I'm not a critic, I am very open minded and learning. While videos like this might turn the majority onto crypto because it's a very well practiced speech ( just like a great infomercial will make people purchase whatever it is they're selling), personally, my natural defenses automatically go up when I see something like this because I feel like the speaker is not painting the whole picture and I start discounting the things he says. It's easy to say that you can turn the switch and make everything you do private and someone else can turn the switch and make everything the government does public but there are so many issues with that statement, I don't know where to start.

All that said, I agree that it might end up being the way of the future (or not, who knows), my comments were solely about this particular video
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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby SilverDoge » Mon Jun 12, 2017

bigjohn wrote: That said, I disagree with this video. The gentleman is extremely well spoken and it was a pleasure to listen to. What I found myself feeling is that I am watching an informational. He talks about properties of money and doesn't fail to mention where today's money fails and where crypto currency excels. He doesn't, however, mention volatility. While all other money is volatile, it's not nearly as volatile as current state of crypto currency.


His audience there has a level of familiarity with crypto already, so the talk assumes some base level knowledge of crypto. Andreas is both a marketer for crypto, but he is also a programmer and author who understands how it works "under the hood" so he isn't your typical promoter with limited in-depth knowledge of how the product really works.

Today's money (dollars) falls short as a storage of value - and he mentions that. He doesn't talk volatility though. Volatility is to be expected though during this transitional phase. There is no way around it. The best thing to do is simply profit from it until it is stable (at a higher price). That means holding through the tough times though.

bigjohn wrote: He mentions how in a perfect bartering system you can trade haircuts for chicken eggs and oil changes, etc. but it's impossible to keep track how many haircuts an oil change costs today and how many haircuts an oil change will cost tomorrow. He says that crypto currency solves the problems we have with current "money" but how does it in this case?


Crypto solves this problem the same way dollars do, by solving the "double co-incident of wants" problem.

bigjohn wrote:I\If I am the one offering an oil change, and you were the one carrying ETH, you could have showed up at my shop three months ago, offered me 1 ETH for an oil change and, if I accepted, you would have been one happy camper. Now, three months later, your car is due for an oil change again and you show up to my shop and I say I want 1 ETH for an oil change, you will be pretty unhappy. The matter fact, you will probably ask for 10 oil changes for the same 1 ETH you paid last time. How is this any different having to keep track of everything?


Back to the volatility point. So there will be crypto in the interim that is not volatile. Like tether for now, but that is tied to the USD. And so there is no real profit potential in it, but you can still use it. This problem will be lessened as crypto matures.

bigjohn wrote:Again, I'm not a critic, I am very open minded and learning. While videos like this might turn the majority onto crypto because it's a very well practiced speech ( just like a great infomercial will make people purchase whatever it is they're selling), personally, my natural defenses automatically go up when I see something like this because I feel like the speaker is not painting the whole picture and I start discounting the things he says. It's easy to say that you can turn the switch and make everything you do private and someone else can turn the switch and make everything the government does public but there are so many issues with that statement, I don't know where to start.


What Andreas is getting at is this. Bitcoin is pseudo-anonymous. But other coins like PIVX, Monero and other privacy centric coins will allow your transactions to be completely private. So if a user wants to send something privately, but he holds bitcoin, he can simply shapeshift into PIVX, make the transaction, and be done. He could also receive PIVX privately, and then shapeshift back into bitcoin if the user feels that he wants his money in the "storage of value" aspect of crypto (bitcoin) instead of the "medium of exchange" aspect of crypto (PIVX). Does that make sense?
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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby bigjohn » Mon Jun 12, 2017

Travis, this all makes sense. His video made sense to me as well, I just didn't necessarily like how the topic was presented. It has been thrown around the few times that if one doesn't know anything about crypto and only watches one video, this is the one to watch. This is really one of the main reasons I commented the way I did. As for wealth storage, it really depends on one's tolerance for risk. If I was to retire yesterday and decided to store all my wealth in bitcoin, this morning I lost 10% of money it took 40 years to save. By no means am I arguing or criticizing crypto currency, I am just trying to put all of the facts on the table instead of just some of the facts so anyone looking into crypto for the first time gets a better understanding of both pros and cons, not just pros. Crypto currency can indeed solve a lot of problems he talked about in the video and if he put it in future tense as goals rather than making it sound like "problem solved", that would make all the difference in how I reacted to the video. Sorry if I am coming across as being argumentative, I'm really not trying to be
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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby SilverDoge » Mon Jun 12, 2017

bigjohn wrote:Travis, this all makes sense. His video made sense to me as well, I just didn't necessarily like how the topic was presented. It has been thrown around the few times that if one doesn't know anything about crypto and only watches one video, this is the one to watch. This is really one of the main reasons I commented the way I did. As for wealth storage, it really depends on one's tolerance for risk. If I was to retire yesterday and decided to store all my wealth in bitcoin, this morning I lost 10% of money it took 40 years to save. By no means am I arguing or criticizing crypto currency, I am just trying to put all of the facts on the table instead of just some of the facts so anyone looking into crypto for the first time gets a better understanding of both pros and cons, not just pros. Crypto currency can indeed solve a lot of problems he talked about in the video and if he put it in future tense as goals rather than making it sound like "problem solved", that would make all the difference in how I reacted to the video. Sorry if I am coming across as being argumentative, I'm really not trying to be


I understand your concern. I sure don't want anybody putting 100% of their wealth in crypto. That would be much too volatile for the vast majority of people. He is talking future, but he is talking now too. The future is literally unfolding before us as we speak. Fortunes will be made (and some others lost) by being in the right crypto. But that is just one aspect of it. There is so much more to it, and Andreas gets it. Don't worry about being argumentative - Long John has you covered on that - just look at some of his first posts in the crypto threads ;)
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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby Long John » Tue Jun 13, 2017

SilverDoge wrote:Don't worry about being argumentative - Long John has you covered on that - just look at some of his first posts in the crypto threads ;)

What? Who's argumentative? You calling ME argumentative? WTF?!

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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby silverpv » Tue Jun 13, 2017

Long John wrote:
SilverDoge wrote:Don't worry about being argumentative - Long John has you covered on that - just look at some of his first posts in the crypto threads ;)

What? Who's argumentative? You calling ME argumentative? WTF?!


this isn't politics, crypto brings us all together... :wave:

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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby Bucketeer » Tue Jun 13, 2017

Long John wrote:Thanks, Travis. Andreas has an everyday way of explaining concepts that are easy to grasp. I loved his (probably fictional) example of the tribes on separate islands who used huge carved stones as a medium of currency. One day a canoe or raft sank while transporting a stone, but it remained a token of currency because both tribes agreed the stone was there at the bottom of the ocean. They agreed the tribe which was supposed to receive it, was richer by one carved stone in their system of trade.

And thus crypto currency was born. (My add, my bad! :lol: )


If they were already trading a currency, this might be more related to the creation of the ledgers.

I know, nit-pick, nit-pick. :D
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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby Long John » Tue Jun 13, 2017

silverpv wrote:this isn't politics, crypto brings us all together... :wave:

We might disagree on which crypto is the preferred currency in Heaven (you know, only a small % of angels have even heard of crypto currency) but we're all God's chillun.

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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby SilverDoge » Sat Jul 22, 2017

Here is a good video from one of the CryptoVersity lessons about "What is money, really" and explains why crypto has the features necessary as money (currency). The only decent argument I've heard against crypto acting as money is "while there might only ever be 21 million bitcoins, anyone can create an infinite number of different cryptos." This argument seemingly breaks the necessary scarcity which is required of any good money. And while true on the surface, one could make the same argument about twitter or facebook. What is stopping someone from making their own social network site and bringing down facebook? The cost of entry is almost nothing - just write the code and host some servers. Of course we all know it isn't that easy. It takes time, resources, network effects, advertising, buy-in of users, and on and on. The same thing goes for creating new cryptos. I could create SilverDoge coin tomorrow but who is going to buy into it? Money is whatever someone is willing to accept as payment.

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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby Long John » Sun Jul 23, 2017

SilverDoge wrote:The only decent argument I've heard against crypto acting as money is "while there might only ever be 21 million bitcoins, anyone can create an infinite number of different cryptos."

Just to play the devil's advocate (a familiar role), while there might only ever be 21 million bitcoins, each one can be divided into 100 million parts. With one bitcoin being worth $2700+ and possibly heading higher, a whole bitcoin will be increasingly rare in person-to-person and retail transactions. They will be conducted in small fractions of a bitcoin. So perhaps the phrase "only 21 million bitcoin" no longer means anything like what it used to. It's like saying there are only X number of $1 billion bills. (I know there is no such thing, but a $100,000 bill is too small for this comparison)

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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby rawteam1 » Sun Jul 23, 2017

The It's different this time mantra has always ended in carnage... there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth...
What?... yea, nobody wants to hear that, oh ok, everyone then have fun, figure it out, and make lots of money, or whatever you call it...
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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby SilverDoge » Mon Jul 24, 2017

rawteam1 wrote:The It's different this time mantra has always ended in carnage... there will be weeping & gnashing of teeth...
What?... yea, nobody wants to hear that, oh ok, everyone then have fun, figure it out, and make lots of money, or whatever you call it...


I wouldn't mind hearing about the eventual crypto collapse, if you could give me the explanation as to WHY it will all end in carnage. I find that the majority of people vehemently against bitcoin either 1) really don't understand the tech very well, or 2) believe that the rich, corrupt, and powerful will be against it and therefore it can't succeed. Well as PM stackers, #2 shouldn't even be a factor for us because we are already fighting that battle, and we have been for years. So why not have a small diversified position into the internet of money, the currency of the future? It sure doesn't hurt to have a bit of education and practical know-how about how these things work.

You see in the last 6 months alone, the corporations and elites have turned up the heat. You hear about certain points of views being blocked on twitter, certain YouTube channels either shut down, or funding streams stopped, based on having the "wrong opinions". You hear about Facebook trying to censor certain views, about Google trying to hide search results that don't fit their narrative or even help to get a politician elected. In the meantime we have corporations who control money. The vast majority of our transactions don't even involve me paying a person, they involve me using a corporation (like a bank, or Visa, or PayPal) and paying some entity who then pays a person on the other end. This means that those corporations CONTROL the flow of money and can determine if/when a certain transaction is not valid. You want to donate to wikileaks - banned. You want to donate to a foundation that believes in marriage should be between a man and a woman? Do it, and perhaps you will be on a donor list that gets leaked to the gay mafia and your business will get shut down. These things have all already happened, what is next? We can all see it coming around the corner. Your transactions monitored, and the fear of being shut out of normal daily commerce for transacting with the "wrong" group, or being reported to authorities.

Not only are crypto currencies the most efficient, private, and safe way for us to do transactions, they prevent TPTB from having their desired monitoring over us. How are you going to transact in gold and silver with someone in another nation, or a State away, or even 200 miles from your town on a regular daily basis? Are you going to pay for your Amazon purchases in silver? Gold is a great store of wealth. Silver is a great local currency, industrial metal, and store of wealth as well. Crypto is the most honest transactional currency ever invented. It isn't an investment per se, but it looks like one now because we don't have mass adoption yet. If the globe was transacting in bitcoin, it would have a very stable price. Until then, the more people that adopt it, the more it rises against the dollar (in reality it is just showing how worthless fiat really is).

We all know our current monetary system can't continue indefinitely. Anybody who understands basic math should get that. The question is what is next? Many here believe there will be a monetary system that returns to honest hard money, a gold or silver based system. While that is possible, since the invention of blockchain in late 2008 I no longer believe that will happen. The government will invent their own blockchain coins (which won't be decentralized, private, or trustless) that they want you to use, or at least pay your taxes with. And so, I will pay my taxes with their desired crypto currency, and transact everything else with my private currencies (PIVX, bitcoin, Monero, etc).

Don't take my word for it, here is Dr. Pippa Malmgren, a US policy analyst and former member of the Working Group on Financial Markets, a government entity better known by its nickname, the “Plunge Protection Team,”... http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-22/pippa-malmgren-talks-bitcoin-refugee-crisis-and-plunge-protection-team

"Today, we are on the brink of similar step change, and the way you will do it is you move to electronic money in conjunction with blockchain. Blockchain is the new ledger, and e-money is the new currency."

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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby SilverDoge » Mon Jul 24, 2017

Long John wrote:
SilverDoge wrote:The only decent argument I've heard against crypto acting as money is "while there might only ever be 21 million bitcoins, anyone can create an infinite number of different cryptos."

Just to play the devil's advocate (a familiar role), while there might only ever be 21 million bitcoins, each one can be divided into 100 million parts. With one bitcoin being worth $2700+ and possibly heading higher, a whole bitcoin will be increasingly rare in person-to-person and retail transactions. They will be conducted in small fractions of a bitcoin. So perhaps the phrase "only 21 million bitcoin" no longer means anything like what it used to. It's like saying there are only X number of $1 billion bills. (I know there is no such thing, but a $100,000 bill is too small for this comparison)


But what is the objection? This is just a semantics argument then. I think once bitcoin hits $10,000 per bitcoin, there may be a push to have exchanges start tracking things in mBTC (millibits), so at that point, 1 mBTC = $10. Maybe it will happen sooner.
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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby rawteam1 » Mon Jul 24, 2017

SilverDoge wrote:
Long John wrote:
SilverDoge wrote:The only decent argument I've heard against crypto acting as money is "while there might only ever be 21 million bitcoins, anyone can create an infinite number of different cryptos."

Just to play the devil's advocate (a familiar role), while there might only ever be 21 million bitcoins, each one can be divided into 100 million parts. With one bitcoin being worth $2700+ and possibly heading higher, a whole bitcoin will be increasingly rare in person-to-person and retail transactions. They will be conducted in small fractions of a bitcoin. So perhaps the phrase "only 21 million bitcoin" no longer means anything like what it used to. It's like saying there are only X number of $1 billion bills. (I know there is no such thing, but a $100,000 bill is too small for this comparison)


But what is the objection? This is just a semantics argument then. I think once bitcoin hits $10,000 per bitcoin, there may be a push to have exchanges start tracking things in mBTC (millibits), so at that point, 1 mBTC = $10. Maybe it will happen sooner.

Lol, this was the gold bull mantra, same spots different name...
keceph `anah

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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby SilverDoge » Thu Jul 27, 2017

I saw the below information as a comment on a ZeroHedge post and thought it worthy, so I'm re-posting here. Commenter tmosley: There are many qualities that make a thing good money, and bitcoin has pulled ahead in many of them, and is poised to dominate them all in the long term. For example:
1. General Acceptability - the dollar wins big, but crypto is making gains. Gold pulling up the rear.
2. Portability - crypto wins HUGE
3. Indestructibility or Durability - Gold and crypto are both indestructible in any practical sense--crypto requires an event that destroys the internet (which would have to destroy the world, realistically) to be destroyed, while gold needs a particle accelerator or has to be dropped into the heart of a star
4. Fungibility - gold, crypto, and dollars all tie here
5. Divisibility- gold is technically more divisible for now, but crypto is easier to divide. You don't need change for crypto transactions, so they beat cash, but are in line with digital dollar transactions.
6. Malleability - crypto wins big, with gold a distant second
7. Recognizable - dollars win big, quasi-tie between gold and crypto, as most people couldn't really tell you if a coin was actually gold or not, whereas it is easy to identify a cryptocurrency, even if most people don't know much about them yet.
8. Stability of Value - Gold wins big, but crypto will stabilize once adoption levels off, at whichever level you think that will happen
9. No Damage to the Economy from Hoarding - my own addition. Gold loses to crypto and dollars as it has use in industry, but the difference isn't tremendous. This is the same reason why silver would be very bad as money today--it would destroy many industries thanks to the tremendous increase in cost that would come with hoarding as money.

In my (tmosley's) judgement, crypto has surpassed gold in most aspects, and better, since it can be changed in order to meet market demands, whether through modification of the algorithm (with the implicit endorsement of the market) or via market selection of a crypto with better characteristics. Areas where the dollars exceed seem likely to not be the case for much longer, such as areas where cryptos are deficient (stability) are likely to see huge improvements as they are fully adopted.
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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby SilverDoge » Fri Sep 08, 2017

SilverDoge wrote:
bigjohn wrote: That said, I disagree with this video. The gentleman is extremely well spoken and it was a pleasure to listen to. What I found myself feeling is that I am watching an informational. He talks about properties of money and doesn't fail to mention where today's money fails and where crypto currency excels. He doesn't, however, mention volatility. While all other money is volatile, it's not nearly as volatile as current state of crypto currency.


Today's money (dollars) falls short as a storage of value - and he mentions that. He doesn't talk volatility though. Volatility is to be expected though during this transitional phase. There is no way around it. The best thing to do is simply profit from it until it is stable (at a higher price). That means holding through the tough times though.


So with the volatility in today's bitcoin (and overall crypto market) prices, let us revisit this issue. In the video that I posted at the start of this thread, Andreas talked about bitcoin and its properties as money. He didn't talk volatility though. This 9 minute video, however, gets to the heart of current volatility, why it happens, and how to handle it. Enjoy.

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Re: Storage of Value, Medium of Exchange, Unit of Account

Postby Long John » Fri Sep 08, 2017

Interesting video, as Andreas usually is. His main point is well taken that Bitcoin (and the crypto market) is so volatile because it is relatively small, the mildest wave can rock the boat. I wish he had spent more time on how the market is therefore easily manipulated and what could/should be done about that.

We can't very well condemn regulation and at the same time complain about those who take advantage of a lawless environment. If we don't want government to clamp down, as is happening in China and the SEC is trying to do as well, what are we doing to police ourselves?


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